Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

ACMA, Licencing, and Examination discussion
VK4TI
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4TI »

VK2AAH wrote:Of course I would... but people need to demonstrate some initiative too. Donating equipment to those who only hold their hand out for everything for nothing only feeds EBay... I recently came across someone who kept complaining how he was being discriminated against because he was a Standard call, and how he thought a radio site owner somehow "owed him" because he was a hobbyist. I offered him stuff but after I heard him moan I walked away. We need more do'ers, not more moan'ers.


Richard
VK2AAH
Sounds like your meeting some seriously unsocial folks , any loaned gear always comes back in great condition so far and those who I helped were glad of it , some of course don't deserve a hand so next time walk away imho , certainly complaints here wont help falling on deaf ears
B
VK4TI
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4TI »

ADMIN wrote:VK4TI, enough is enough.

Can you please spend a few moments and learn how to use the quote tags properly.
It isn't that hard, and honestly, your posts are often indecipherable, as to where a quote starts and ends, especially when viewed on a mobile device.
Alternatively, stop attempting to use quotes altogether.

Getting in, before the next round of complaints come in.

TIA.
I hit quote and type , often on my phone and it causes me no problem , odd I remember only one previous complaint but perhaps my hearing is bad
VK2FABS
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK2FABS »

Just read Roger VK2ZRH's updated link for WIA's submission to ACMA. The update with two attached tables of band permissions for the various AR licence levels were pretty striking. It can certainly be interpreted as a clear reflection and part reason why there's a difference in the AR scenes b/n the jurisdictions.

http://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2 ... /index.php
Weiyun VK2FABS
VK4BLP

Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4BLP »

VK5ZLR wrote: I would suggest that AR is doing itself long term harm by following this high cost of entry road.
Agreed, this entry cost of exams is just way too high to get people in to this hobby.

People are wary of 'doing their dough' if they bomb out on an exam, and have to pay it all over again for every new attempt.

Of course, a examinee shouldn't be doing an exam if they're not ready for it.

Yes, I know ACMA demand that the WIA do it only on a cost recovery basis, but one would normally think it wasn't that expensive cost to the WIA to do these exams, afterall they have us assessors who are happy to do them at no charge to the end client.

Personally I never feel all that confident when I do an exam, and always worry about failing it, especially if I have to re-sit it and have to pay the same full rate every time. I can guarantee that I'm not the only one that feels that way, no matter how comfortable I might be with the topic.
VK4TI
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4TI »

VK4BLP wrote:
Agreed, this entry cost of exams is just way too high to get people in to this hobby.

People are wary of 'doing their dough' if they bomb out on an exam, and have to pay it all over again for every new attempt.

Of course, a examinee shouldn't be doing an exam if they're not ready for it.

Yes, I know ACMA demand that the WIA do it only on a cost recovery basis, but one would normally think it wasn't that expensive cost to the WIA to do these exams, afterall they have us assessors who are happy to do them at no charge to the end client.

Personally I never feel all that confident when I do an exam, and always worry about failing it, especially if I have to re-sit it and have to pay the same full rate every time. I can guarantee that I'm not the only one that feels that way, no matter how comfortable I might be with the topic.
Agreed it has a highish cst element but dare I mention the cost of similar trade qualifications , and yes beaten to death but running the thing does have some expense
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK7ZA »

My understanding though is that the WIA is simply providing an admin service with respect to exams and licensing, which could pretty much be fully automated with little cost or effort. Happy to be corrected on this if there are tasks I'm missing.
VK4BLP

Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4BLP »

VK4TI wrote: Agreed it has a highish cst element but dare I mention the cost of similar trade qualifications , and yes beaten to death but running the thing does have some expense
There's no doubt there's some expense involved for the WIA, but they're not paying for the examination services provided by us voluntarily.

The processing of exam packs to be sent out, exam packs returned and processed, so yes there is some costs involved, but I'm yet to see the details of this cost recovery.
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK2AAH »

Have you asked the WIA Brendan? The question has been asked before and the costs are all accounted for.


Richard
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4DU »

The WIA are only covering their costs - the pricing is effectively set by ACMA...
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VK2ZRH
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK2ZRH »

VK7LDC posted:
My understanding though is that the WIA is simply providing an admin service with respect to exams and licensing, which could pretty much be fully automated with little cost or effort. Happy to be corrected on this if there are tasks I'm missing.
The WIA does provide " . . . an admin service with respect to exams and licensing . . .", but that statement misses the detail involved in the production of exam papers, all the necessary recording of candidates, events and results, the processing of Certificate of Proficiency and licence applications, not to mention callsign recommendations, together with all the essential accounting, reporting, privacy and security requirements set out by the ACMA under the Commonwealth Deed that governs provision of this service. Charges for every aspect of the exam and licensing service are audited annually by a team of independent Commonwealth auditors, who report to the ACMA.

That adverb - "simply" - doesn't cover it. :o

To get a handle on examination and licensing costs, I recommend that you take a scroll through the President's Blog on the WIA website, here: http://www.wia.org.au/joinwia/wia/presidentsblog/

I suggest your first port of call would best be January 2012 - Cost recovery and the WIA’s charges, written by then-President Michael Owen VK3KI (SK). It covers the ground in some detail. The upshot is, that the WIA has to prove to the satisfaction of the Commonwealth auditing team that the charges made only recover the reasonable costs involved. Vanishingly few small service businesses are subject to the stringent and exacting obligations of the ACMA Deed's requirements. :shock:

Having completed that exercise, I recommend you scroll up the page to January 2014, written by President Phil Wait VK2ASD, where you will find hope for the future under the heading Future dreaming. Better yet, for the benefit of all readers, let me quote:
The Foundation licence and the amateur licence examinations system are now nine years old. While a review of the Foundation licence examination syllabus and licence conditions has been progressing for some time, the current examinations system has been in place generally without change.

While it has served the Institute and the Australian radio amateur community well to date, I know that many amateurs and would-be amateurs and assessors consider it over-burdened with procedure and paperwork. The WIA must ensure a robust audit trail of actions and responses, all meeting expectations and requirements of the ACMA and the Commonwealth Government. However, the WIA Board and our RTO believes the process can be improved significantly by placing much of the administration component on-line. This would speed the processing of materials, reduce costs and also avoid instances where the paperwork is filled out incorrectly and needs to be returned by post to the assessor.

What if? What if . . . a candidate could sit the licence examination and receive, if successful, a Certificate of Proficiency, their licence and a callsign. We are currently working on reaching that goal.
:clap:
The exam service, don't forget is supported by an army of more than 200 volunteers, who give freely of their time and effort to assist keen people to get into this remarkable divertissement / hobby / obsession / pastime / pursuit . . . :D
73, Roger Harrison VK2ZRH
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4BLP »

VK2AAH wrote:Have you asked the WIA Brendan? The question has been asked before and the costs are all accounted for.
Have to admit, no I have not.

It does seem very high to what is done by us volunteer assessors.
VK4TI
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4TI »

VK4BLP wrote:
Have to admit, no I have not.

It does seem very high to what is done by us volunteer assessors.
An equivalent trade through tafe qualification runs a lot of hours per unit even when the labour content is removed by the examiners time it's a good sum of money , I would like it cheaper but reasonably I doubt it is possible considering the time spent in examining the results are remarkable imho . I also suggest if you want more explicit answer then approach the Wia as certainly most of us have given them the benefit of support on the matter , do post the response if able :idea: .
B
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK7ZA »

VK2ZRH, thanks for the detailed response to my post. It is encouraging to read the future dreaming portion, as it does mirror some of my thoughts.
VK3SJ

Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK3SJ »

Don't think that the future in amateur radio is with the youth, in the USA 5 year old children get licences. Do you seriously think amateur radio gets any advantage from this, would you strike up a conversation with a five year old and exchange technical ideas
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK7ZA »

You need to put down whatever it is you've been smoking :D . I don't think any of us were thinking of five year old when referring to youth. Having said that, if a five year old is smart enough to pass the test, I'd be happy to chat to her. The bigger question though, is would she want too talk to you and me.
Last edited by VK7ZA on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VK3DXE
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK3DXE »

VK7LDC wrote:You need to put down whatever it is you've been smoking :D . I don't think any of us were thinking of five year old when referring to youth. Having said that, if a five year old is smart enough to pass the test, I'd be happy to chat to her. The bigger question though, is would she wasn't too talk to you and me.
There's a 10 yo young fella comes up on one of the repeaters here in Hellbourne at drive time. He can hold a decent conversation.
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK3RX »

Don't think that the future in amateur radio is with the youth, in the USA 5 year old children get licences. Do you seriously think amateur radio gets any advantage from this
With an interest in radio communications, electronics etc. sparked at an early age, that may well develop over time and result in both staying with the hobby and pursuing a technical career path.

Grumpy old farts don't benefit the future of AR.
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK4GHZ »

VK3DXE wrote:He can hold a decent conversation.
We have a relatively new teenager F-Call in SW Brisbane who can talk the ears off anyone, and his enthusiasm can be infectious.
If only 10,000 more of these guys had trickled into the VK ranks in the last decade, then amateur radio would have had a future beyond the life expectancy of the average retiree now.

The ironic thing is - a lot of full call hams cannot hold a decent conversation to begin with.

HFers in particular go through some monotonous spiel about "working conditions", their weather (as if anyone else honestly cares, and no one ever asked to begin with!), and then the "conversation" is suddenly wound up with the "back to you for your final". Their internal TTY paper loop has run out!

Wash, rinse, repeat. :roll:
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK5PJ »

Hi Adam
VK4GHZ wrote:Wash, rinse, repeat. :roll:
that's quite a dangerous LOOP for the coders of the world :mrgreen:
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VK3DXE
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Re: Exam / Licence Price & Young People ..

Post by VK3DXE »

VK3SJ wrote:Don't think that the future in amateur radio is with the youth, in the USA 5 year old children get licences. Do you seriously think amateur radio gets any advantage from this, would you strike up a conversation with a five year old and exchange technical ideas
Well if it's not "with the youth", then who the #@%$ is it with? Or is there some new comms tech I haven't heard of yet where all the old farts can keep playing spark-gap from "the other side"? :roll:

I dunno about your experience, but I find young kids to be FULL of surprisingly insightful questions and solutions, and that's how I've brought my kids up.
Alan VK3DXE
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