Is there a use for WSPR on 50Mhz?

[VK2XN]

WSPRNet is a Weak Signal Propagation Reporter Network, commonly used on the HF bands for mapping propogation and detecting possible path openings.
It relies on Amateur operators transmitting and Amateur/SWl's receiving a WSPR signal on a designated frequency over extended periods of time.
Data is collected by the WSPR software and uploaded via internet to a central online data base http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map

Anyone can log on and check for propagation paths that may be open on any band from 2m thru 160m and beyond.
Of course for this to all work effectively, there has to be plenty of data flowing into the system.

I have been following the 144mhz Amateurs testing and trialing WSPR on logger
It's exciting to see "hams" trying something different with new technology and fresh ideas.

So........

Is there a use for WSPR on 6 metres?

[VK4GHZ]

...Is there a use for WSPR on 6 metres?

As a real-time early warning system (like monitoring for TV TXs and beacons), probably not.
My knowledge of WSPR is limited, but from what I understand, it is something you review AFTER it happened.
It's a bit like a lazy operator not putting the time and effort into actual operating, and coming back later to see what could have been.

Some exotic and under-explored paths & propagation on 6m can be fleeting.
For example, when VK4CZ worked OA4TT in December 2009.
Who would have thought that, at a cycle minima.
What's the point to see that path existed, hours or days later using WSPR?

As a long-term tool (>11 years) to record repeating propagation paths for the future, WSPR could be useful.

So is spotting reception reports in real-time on Loggers.

[VK5BC]

As a real-time early warning system (like monitoring for TV TXs and beacons), probably not.
My knowledge of WSPR is limited, but from what I understand, it is something you review AFTER it happened.
It's a bit like a lazy operator not putting the time and effort into actual operating, and coming back later to see what could have been.

Yes this can be the case but WSPR works on 2 minute cycles and you can be watching the results as they occur, not much different than scanning a lot of beacons and waiting for your radio to hear one of sufficient strength and stop.

Some exotic and under-explored paths & propagation on 6m can be fleeting.
For example, when VK4CZ worked OA4TT in December 2009.
Who would have thought that, at a cycle minima.
What's the point to see that path existed, hours or days later using WSPR?.

Yes this was a fleeting example of propogation where I doubt whether any normal beacon would of be of any use, if you had been scanning it probably would have been too weak to stop the scan and if you had been listening for the beacon by the time you had identified it and made a call to establish the a contact it could have all been over.

I have experimented with WSPR on HF in the past and recently on 2m with excellent results. Today I carried out some tests on 6m with Garry VK5ZK over a 175Km path and results proved to be very positive. We were able to receive perfect decodes well into the -20db area and this despite doppler/aircraft enhancement occuring on the path. I think the jury may still out on the use of WSPR as a beaconing system but we should keep experimenting with it to prove its usefullness and it may just become a usefull adjunct to the normal beacons & early warning signals.

73's Brian
VK5BC

[VK2XN]

...Is there a use for WSPR on 6 metres?

As a real-time early warning system (like monitoring for TV TXs and beacons), probably not.

My knowledge of WSPR is limited, but from what I understand, it is something you review AFTER it happened.
It's a bit like a lazy operator not putting the time and effort into actual operating, and coming back later to see what could have been.

Some exotic and under-explored paths & propagation on 6m can be fleeting.
For example, when VK4CZ worked OA4TT in December 2009.
Who would have thought that, at a cycle minima.
What's the point to see that path existed, hours or days later using WSPR?

As a long-term tool (>11 years) to record repeating propagation paths for the future, WSPR could be useful.

So is spotting reception reports on Loggers.

In reply.

* My knowledge of the WSPR mode is in it's infancey. During the past week I have experimented with WSPR on both HF 0.508Mhz - 28.1246Mhz and VHF 50.2930
Also looked at data provided by VK op's using 144.5500Mhz uploaded to VKlogger and WSPRnet
From this I Know that WSPR ..... Is an acronym for Weak Signal Propagation Reporter
........................................ Is a digital mode transmitting a 6hz FSK tone at 1.46 baud
.........................................Is a real time Spotting mode
.........................................Can be used in many applications such as testing antenna efficiency, transciever frequency stability...etc
.........................................One Transmission cycle provides the following... Frequency drift report in Hz, Call sign, Grid locator and TX power.
........................................ Uploads UTC time stamp, signal report as db+- S/N, signal deviation and the above transmission report to WSPRnet.org.
.........................................TX and RX cycles operate in 2 minute blocks with options of RX only or TX times from 1% to 100%
.........................................Transmitter RF output needs to be no more than 20w and little as 100mw
.........................................Has many more feature i am yet to discover.
*I must Qualify as the "Lazy Operator"
* WSPR is a real time propogation testing, data collection, equipment testing & spotting Mode.
* I agree that WSPR is indeed a "Usefull" long term tool to record repeating propagation paths for the future, as is VKlogger.
*Not only Exotic propogation paths can be fleeting. Meteor, some scatter and EME propogation paths to name a few can also be fleeting where beacons, 40Mhz early warning signals or WSPR
I am sure would be found lacking.

I am neither for or against the use of WSPR as a propagation or early warning tool. Tests thus far on 6m ( that I'm aware of) have only been over distances of 1500km or less where propagation of any type is mostly fleeting and unstable.
Distance of 3000km plus are where I think WSPR will shine on 6m......But...... we need operators who are prepared to run WSPR beacons for extended periods of time and at the same time.

Thanks for your reply Adam

73,
Wayne....VK2XN

[VK2KRR]

I think it would be usefull for the above reasons mentioned by VK2XN, particularly on very long paths, or tropo paths.

[VK6ZRY]

The 6M diehards (stoneage) will just fade away Hi.

Or ask for 100 Watt beacons, I suppose.


As the Ch 0 stations dry up, I suppose the diehards who listen to CW beacons only, by scanning memory channels for days, may come around.

Unfortunately all their rigs are used to 'listen' to CW from beacons and each other, frequency accuracy is not a problem, as each Op adjusts the rig to suit.

Now we are asking them to be accurate to 100Hz or so.

When you look in the wspr database the reported spot vary by a large amonut on HF, but this doesn't really matter for our

purposes on 6M. We just want to know if there is a path, so voice comms can take place, wspr is a simple tool.

Wspr should really be promoted as a simple tool, not for "contacts", as much fun as it currently is for some of us.

I think the WSJT 7 Suite of modes may have put them off, as looking at the WSJT screen is quite daunting, and maybe the thought

of wspr being similar may put them off.

By just saying wspr is sort of automatic may bring them around.

It has a database updated by your PC, a map that shows paths, it even has tuning built in, provided you can find a stable

local beacon, which in my state is rare.

Atomic timing is also new, as wspr demands less than 1 second, but using Dimension 4 would allow them to operate any digital mode.


Dunno what else to do .

In my profession, I have been using synchronous digital heirarchy in all facets, the digital data network, Digital exchanges and then the

Bigpond POPs I installed in WA.

Everything is 'clocked' all back to Master clocks in Adelaide.

Wspr ops all need to be clocking the same.

[VK4ABW]

Well....seeing as i am stuck at work during the day and the cycle appears to be picking up i'm thinking of setting up some wspr on 6mtrs.
Proposed operation will be:
1. 50w > 6m7jhv beaming 330 - 350deg between 7am - 12pm week days.
2. 10w > 6db collinear 7am - 4pm then 50w > 6m7jhv 4pm - 12pm weekends.

de Gary
VK8AW

[VK2KRR]

Good call Gary, be interesting to see how you go, I'll keep an eye on it.

I know of one station in Japan building an antenna for 6m WSPR to look at TEP which will be good.

Interestingly Wayne VK2XN & Peter VK5PJ had a 6m WSPR path this morning at about 4am

[VK4ABW]

Roger on that Leigh. I did see 1 JA station on the WSPR webpage and thought that i am suitably placed to give it a shot
After all. JR6EXN was hearing the VK8 beacon at 1am the other night....and i thought it was all over at 11pm
I will put the 6db collinear back up tomorrow afternoon as i took it down to fine tune the 6m7 this week.

The plan is to run the yagi around 4pm to midnight each weekday and I'm a little undecided whether to run the yagi or collinear for VK during the day

Gary
VK8AW /VK4ABW

[VK2KRR]

Hi Gary

The JA's come and go, but if u make some noise it might make a few more tune in. Im guessing WSPR 6m wont decode on late evening TEP due to the freq spreading. But I'd like to see what happens. Should still be OK during the day though.

I wonder what night the JR6 heard the beacon ?? not last Thursday 18th ?? as thats when I was getting through on 10m WSPR to two JA's at about 11 pm. I was also hearing them here but not able to decode due to the freq spread.

I'd suggest the collinear would be all you need for VK paths, but maybe you could alternate on different days with the yagi and see what happens.

[VK4ABW]

Hide was hearing the VK8 beacon on the 16 aug around midnight.
It's a shame that TEP shifts the frequency but it shouldn't be too far off.
Fired up the WSPR late last night after resolving a USB problem between SigLink and PC. It would rx but no tx.
I noticed that the VK8 beacon is a 1/4 wave with 10watts so.....if i run 20 ~ 40w into my 6db collinear @ 30ft agl...maybe it will provide an earlier warning I'm virtually on the beach anyway

Gary
VK8AW / VK4ABW

[VK3ZAZ]

The 6M diehards (stoneage) will just fade away Hi.
Or ask for 100 Watt beacons, I suppose.
As the Ch 0 stations dry up, I suppose the diehards who listen to CW beacons only, by scanning memory channels for days, may come around.

Dont listen to beacons.
Dont scan.
I read the band always have always will.
Guys its 2012 going on 2013.


WSPR on 6M band?
Via F2

Go do it dont talk about it..


Yep sure am an old fossil fading away....

23-Jan-2012 22:40 CW K4MM 15910KM
23-Jan-2012 22:44 CW K4SN 15745KM
23-Jan-2012 23:00 CW W9DR 15744KM
23-Jan-2012 23:04 CW N8PR 15859KM
11-Jan-2011 00:56 CW K9HMB 15743KM

Xcuse me but how far from VK6 this cycle???



Furthest dx in VK mostly worked on CW
All dx records out of VK3 since 1959.. CW.

WSPR?
Go for it


LOL


Cheers

[VK2KRR]

Steve,
There was no USA stations on 6m WSPR at the time those contacts were made in January being winter over there at that time. Its hard to have your WSPR signal heard when there is no one at the far end listening.

Gary,
I dont think any freq shifting is the the problem with WSPR decoding, its the spreading and distorting thats an issue. Ive had some screen shots sent to me from JQ1HDR from some 6m ETEP from earlier in the year. He could see my signal, just no decoding most of the time due to the spreading.

[VK4ABW]

Roger on that Leigh. I will be giving 6 & 2 wspr a good go this summer. Will wait and see what happens.

[VK2AVR]

It's a bit like a lazy operator not putting the time and effort into actual operating, and coming back later to see what could have been.

I really wish hams would be more open-minded and not denigrate the way others operate.

Do you sit in front of a radio and operate 24/7? No? Well that's one great area WSPR can be of use - in statistical information gathering. The more understanding we have about how bands like 6m work the better focussed our efforts are when we are actually sitting in front of the radio. Heck, you can sit in front of your radio and watch WSPR if you want but I would personally find it boring - maybe others enjoy looking at the waterfall while they drink tea and there's nothing wrong with that.

The best way to think about WSPR is "playing radio when you're not at your radio". It's not a substitute for more active forms of operation but it's another avenue for self-learning and the greater good by sharing information on propagation in a quantifiable way.

Geoff VK2MIA

[VK4ABW]

Spot on Geoff. I currently have 3 WSPR setups and one of the great things about it is i can go to work and via the web see how each setup is performing during the day. Three (3) separate radios > 3 identical antenna's (CP610s) but the antenna's are in different locations and at different heights. I have seen up to 5db difference in signals on some days. With summer rolling on shortly, these WSPR trials will be moved to six metres.

VK8AW / VK4ABW

[VK2VHF]

I am really enjoying HF WSPR at present (thanks to Leigh's help) and I will definitely be trying it on 2/6m.

I am kind of hooked at the moment as I have always been interested in digital modes, mainly PSK until now.

But I never see any VKs running it on 2m......c'mon.

Adrian

[VK3DXE]

One of the problems with running WSPR on 2m seems to be frequency stability, although I find that can be overcome to a certain degree by running 3 sequences in a row in order to get the rig to a decent operating temperature and then keeping it there to minimise drift. The same applies on 6m, although not quite so critical.

The other is frequency accuracy. I've run a few tests with people and found them to be right outside the WSPR passband. At HF, the drift is a whole lot less, and for other modes such as JT65, the drift and stability issues are nowhere near as critical, but even 20Hz error at 15Mhz (if using WWV as a reference) is around 200Hz error at 2m, which will most likely lead to disappointing results.

Unfortunately I don't have an external reference on my IC-7000, but have been able to plot it's 2m accuracy and stability vs. temperature against the known frequency of the VK7RAE 2m beacon which is GPS locked. Spectrum Lab is a great tool for checking your stability and accuracy against such a known reference. With Speclab, you don't have to be able to hear the beacon, just see it in the waterfall display.

If you are able, I recommend running some tests with somebody local to see where you are, frequency wise. There is plenty of information on the interwebs covering many of the popular radios and how to adjust the master oscillator. Fortunately for me, the IC-7000 can be done in software, but others may require opening the hood and making a physical adjustment. I've also helped a couple of TS-2000 owners get their rigs more into the ballpark. Just be careful when making any adjustments.