ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

ACMA, Licencing, and Examination discussion
VK2MUS
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2MUS »

Well, I learned just about every thing I needed to know to pass what we now call an Advanced licence by the time I was 14.
Good on you, I probably did at 16 but have forgotten most of it. My occupational path required me to have expertise in other fields
I may not agree with your view but I respect your right to say it. However wether you like it or not - things have changed and I doubt if the powers to be are going to come around and take the licence off the current F calls. Better to improve the current situation with the F licence then to simply ignore it - it will not go away infact the number of F calls should increase over time and in a way this is good for the community, the more amateurs out there the better and stronger we are. As to maintaining tradition - tradition is more then being able to read a circuit - a hell of a lot more - I think a lot of the F Calls join because of the tradition of commun ity, of learning from others, of wanting to help in situations of local and national disasters, in maning the local rural fire brigrade radios and simply to have chat , a lot of reasons - all part and parcel of the RA Traditions that you limit to a knowledge of electronics and probably morse.
From the Hill in Muswellbrook. VK2MUS
Occupation: Amplitude Modulator :om:
VK3FKRK

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK3FKRK »

the problem i am see is that Fcall are are sticking to themself, hay why not as lot of S and A calls will not even talk to f calls, i had this problem at the last feild day,and to make it clear i am planning to upgrade becuse i want to explore other areas of AR, when readly most f call will upgrade but in there own time.
In the mean time help them out not put them down.
VK2HRD

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2HRD »

Hi I have been reading this thread with interest my daughter is 12 going on 13 we both sat and passed our F calls at the same time I was very happy and proud that she got her F call at 10 years old (Something I would never have been able to do at her age) I continued to study and passed my S call about 6 months later.My technical background is not in electronics and it was a bit of a struggle for me to get a pass ( 80% ) so what some of you are saying is that I should not have a AR licence because I have little or no interest in the building of radios I can and have built a number of antanaes to use and I have fitted radios at home and in a number of Vehicles .We are not all blessed with the ability to absorb the in's and out's of electronics how ever building a tower or other stuff requiring welding or the machining of parts is my trade and I am proud of it. You are all saying that AR is dieing and we need to bring more people into this hobby. Ok but carrying on about us all having to be able to build a radio from scratch is not going to achieve this weather you are a F a S or a A call is immaterial yes I agree some knowledge of the internals of a radio is required no argument from me but to push the point about it being the and all be all of radio is self defeating and is only going to drive people away if I have a problem with my radios I will try and trouble shoot it but when it comes to opening it up and fixing it that will never happen with me however I am also lucky to have people around me willing to share their expertise and look inside them for me in exchange I have been on the roofs of other AR people ( Installing antanaes and building tower Bases)who are no longer able to do this with my trade skills I am able to do other stuff to compensate for my lack of Electronics skills.Yes I am also studying to get my A call but I am not in a hurry and as I am dealing with other things I'm my life not going to sit the exam in the foreseeable future . :?
VK3WL
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK3WL »

There are some good posts here. May I recomend to all amateurs, and not just F calls, there is an immediate need for opperting proceedures, protocols, and good manners generally to be improved on-air. The opperating standards I observe on-air have dropped over the years, and significantly so in more recent times. Since the elimination of Morse code and the introduction of the Foundation License, both of which I supported and continue to, the decline has been pronounced. This degradation of standards is also in-line with the lowering of standards accross our society in general, and is evidenced in what we see and hear in the electronic media in particular.

In recent days I've been applaled at what I heard being broadcast on a major Melbourne 2m repeater. The langauge was offensive, confrontational, and the tone of conversation tyranical. The offenders were not kids, but grown mature (?) adults. I'm not a puritanical saint and can swear with the best of you if provoked! However I feel the amateur bands should be above bass level behavior. The Radio Amateurs Code, published in the WIA Call Book, and in ARRL publications, et al, says it all in my view. My point is I encourage all F calls, as relatively new amateurs, to have and maintain your opperating standards, and don't have these diluted by others whose interests and intellect would be better catered for on 27MHz.

The idiots that use amateur radio as some sort of sideshow or back room bar are not welcome, and do only damage to our hobby.
VK4WDM

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK4WDM »

As I said earlier in the thread. Bring back the Wouff Hong and the Rettysnitch (shudder!)

And as I also said earlier. I have a very good recording setup attached to my station and if I hear bad or offensive language on ANY band a recording will be made and sent to the ACMA and the minister of communications. Will they act? Yes. There was some similar things happening on a repeater a few years ago and the people responsible no longer hold ham licenses.

Remember, we are expected to have some degree of "self regulation." IMO that means if we fail to report unacceptable behavior to the authorities we are aiding and abetting the behavior.

73

Wayne VK4WDM
VK2MUS
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2MUS »

My point is I encourage all F calls, as relatively new amateurs, to have and maintain your opperating standards, and don't have these diluted by others whose interests and intellect would be better catered for on 27MHz.
a lot of the F calls are looking for a decent environment after operating on the CB - I gave up the cb in the 80's got tired of the language, having my radio blowen apart every time I passed a house where the CB'er was operating at power levels one will only find in the middle east. However I listen to a chat by two advanced ops on 20M over the weekend ( true they were not aussie ops) and the language was almost to the level of that found on CB - had a young person who was interested in radio here to listen in - his father was not impressed. Again I listen in to two aussie advanced chatting one in Vic the other in SA the language was low level compared to CB but it was uncalled for. I must admit that there is only a low incident of bad language across the 40 and 20M bands but then there should be none. If you hear a F call using CB type tactics then jump on him and if it continues then report him - simple as that ( this should also apply to all clases of calls) There are a lot of young kids on the air via the foundation licence they learn good operating standards by listening to the bands - I had a young chap interested in radio who quickly read the foundation manual and then posed the question while listening - why don't they have to give their callsigns every 10 minutes does that only apply to foundation operator?
From the Hill in Muswellbrook. VK2MUS
Occupation: Amplitude Modulator :om:
VK2VKT

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2VKT »

I agree with the previous post that a lot of new operators may have found their way into AR because they tired of the CB world, and as such make an effort to be courteous.

I think we should consider that society in general are more tolerant to certain words finding their way into everyday communications, but with the average age of the AR community getting higher the majority of us may become offended to the language used. I would be severely reprimanded by my pop if I used the word "bloody" (let alone anything worse), but we hear this word used so often these days most people would not bat an eye (my pop still would have clipped me behind the head though). Yes, some words should never be spoken though, whether on air or out in public.
From what I have come across so far we aren't too bad in Australia. When holidaying in California last year I had the pleasure :wink: of experiencing W6NUT repeater. I had a lot of QSO's with some very friendly folk on other repeaters whilst I was there, but did not dare put a call out on this repeater. For those interested in what I mean search W6NUT in youtube, but be warned.

We should be more concerned about courteousness (or lack off) on the airwaves. Hearing someone disrespect another is more of a concern than the type of language used. I would be more offended hearing "get off the air idiot, you are anly an F Call" than hearing one mate tell another he had a s**t of a day at work. Same goes for carrier dropping, keying repeaters to annoy etc. We should also be courteous toward educating newcomers who may not be operating as proficiently as some of the old timers, as well as accepting that not all amateurs have interests in the same aspects of the hobby as they have. One such example is the quote "If it ain't CW its CB" :(

But back on topic, word on another forum is that ACMA have still been doing the rounds, and have shut down two ops in Victoria along with an "illegal" repeater. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this info though. Can anyone confirm this?

73
Lee
VK2VKT
VK4BLP

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK4BLP »

VK2FJRS wrote:
Maybe concentrate on inference in the foundation exam a bit more (from memory there was no question on interference in my exam) . I simply told my neighbours to note down the time and date if they had any interference on their TV etc and I could check it against my log but the truth be known - it is more likely that I will recieve interference more from their wide screen TV's then they will from me.

I just don't think that 10W was a logical choice( infact I don't think the foundation licence was well thought out) - the general agrument given is usually to restrict the amount of interference from F calls but in the F call is using a commercially made radio usually a commercially manufacturerd antenna and is really the last person that is likely to cause interference even if his power levels were increased within the limit of the radio. I think the incentive to upgrade for an F call should be the band allocations not the power level as such.
I agree with you on this. The two most important things in my eyes that the Foundation licence exams should concentrate on is Safety and Interference. These are the things that can and will denigrate the greater amateur community should some F call get himself zapped or start to cause interference with his neighbourhood.

Like you, a F call should be to use more power than 10 watts, and 50 watts seems to be a reasonable amount. Just look at some of the mobile rigs that have power levels of 5, 15, 50 watts. 10 watt limits mean a F call is legally stuck with 5 watts, as 15w is above the limit. Mind you, I can happily get by up here in 5w because of repeater locations that suit me.

I am in the process of studying for my Advanced, but I'm doing the upgrade for the extra bans that will become available to me, in particular 20m is a place I want to get on to, and the kick up in power is just a bonus.

I do believe if F calls can keep the current bands but increase from 10w to 50w, then we might find them staying as F calls, rather than upgrading simply for the extra power.
VK3WAM

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK3WAM »

VK4FLAB wrote:I do believe if F calls can keep the current bands but increase from 10w to 50w, then we might find them staying as F calls, rather than upgrading simply for the extra power.
I don't think there is much chance of this happening because of interference issues. Some of the other debates, such as low bandwidth digital modes, etc. may be more fruitful. Those that are not content with f-calls staying f-calls would be delighted to see anyone seeking to upgrade to gain the extra power. I do find it interesting that 20m is off limits for f-calls as well, and if the central reason for this is an upgrade carrot.

In other developments, and getting back to the original subject of this topic, it seems like the WIA have been busy with ACMA, with some meetings and using information gained in FOI requests. Are ACMA backing down from their stance that any ability to transmit out-of-band automatically means that you have intent to transmit out-of-band? There has been a lot of debate over time about this, but overly strict interpretations of certain clauses of the act might be a little self defeating.

Take for instance, as far as I am aware, all HF equipment for 80m has the ability to transmit from 3.5MHz to 3.8MHz. Now, what about the gap between 3.7MHz and the DX window? Hands up if your HF rig is specifically prevented from TX-ing in there? Now, for all of you amateurs out there with HF rigs that did not put your hands up, shame on you, you shameless lawbreaker :D. But seriously, this is the logical extension of the approach taken with the ACMA F-call inspections last year, and any good lawyer would be able to argue that this was not the intent of parliament to effectively outlaw HF amateur radio through the inability of licensed operators to obtain or construct complying equipment.

Regards,
Wayne VK3WAM
VK2FAK

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2FAK »

Hi all...

This is becoming a very long thread now...

Moving F calls to 50w....I don't think so ...in my opinion you appreciate things way more if you have to work for it...not just handed to you....

As far as AR dieing...the last numbers I saw from the US were many thousands joining the ranks...
The recent conditions have not helped at all..

So its simple, listening on the bands as I guess we all did as a kid ,listening to all the different countries is just not happening here in Australia.....From what I hear it still happens in Europe and the US....but not here...People have there weekly or daily skeds on usually 40m and that is all they are interested in.

Am I missing something ?

NB. Nobody is breaking any law by having a radio that operates in that section of the Band on 80m.....its where you operate that counts. But I get your point.

John
VK2MUS
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2MUS »

new radio's can be set to not transmit outside the bands via the menu system - first thing I did when I got my new rigs was to setup the menu's including the band widths. If your radio does not allow this in the menu then rig control programs such as Ham Radio deluxe does. I have an argument with the statement that the lower wattage is set for the F callers to over come any interference problems - first they are only using commercial rigs not home brew units so if the radio complies with the Australian standards then interference should not be a problem. More likely to cause interference from bad antenna's and placement of antennas - however the F exam does not cover this area. Nowadays interference is more of a problem to the operator then the neighbors as a large amount of the interference is coming from their plasma TV's and in my case the security system in the school across the road and the square wave inverters on all the new solar power units. I think the 10W limit is more to decrease the 'interference' to standard and advanced operators on the bands .
However having said that if you have your antenna tuned correctly and fed correctly and you watch the propagation figures then 10W will still get you a fair distance and apart from the 20M band I think a lot of F callers forget the 10M band which has been open on a fairly regular basis over the past few weeks not for very long time periods at a time but long enough to make contact. The 20M band is nice but it is not the only band out there. For a F caller to make the best use of his rig he has to do a lot more thinking about antennas , coax feed and propagation then an advanced operator needs to do running 400Ws
From the Hill in Muswellbrook. VK2MUS
Occupation: Amplitude Modulator :om:
VK2CJC

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CJC »

VK2FJRS wrote:new radio's can be set to not transmit outside the bands via the menu system - first thing I did when I got my new rigs was to setup the menu's including the band widths. If your radio does not allow this in the menu then rig control programs such as Ham Radio deluxe does.
I have experienced many radios. New and old. And I have never seen a radio that can set its TX band edges in the menus.

And I'm pretty sure ham radio deluxe cant do that either.

Could you tell us which radios you refer to and exactly how to do it.
VK4WDM

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK4WDM »

One of the problems with an extra long thread is that people forget to read back far enough. I previously posted an email response I had from direct conversations with a senior ACMA member. There is absolutely NO issue with having, or using a transmitter, that is capable of transmitting on band segments that are not currently permitted by Australian license conditions: above 3.7 MHZ for example, or on bands not permitted by licence class: a F call having a rig that is 20m capable for example.

The major issues that the ACMA are concerned with are: AR radio gear being modified and operated in a service for which "type approved equipment" is required: land mobile, marine, etc, and cheap "wideband" VHF/UHF transceivers that are not specifically being sold for the ham market. This gear must be, and can be, set to transmit in permitted frequency only. I have heard on the grape vine that such a tranceiver was thought to have caused interference to an airfield control tower when a child decided to play with his dad's wideband hand held. Dad was an avid airband monitor as well as a ham, and had left it tuned to the tower frequency. All the child needed to do was press the PTT button and talk! :oops:

Before we have another round of what is right and wrong , go back in the thread and carefully read what the ACMA are REALLY on about. :)

One of the suggestions I gave to the ACMA (who read this thread, and probably many others) that they produce "one pager" on the suject and enclose it with all licence paperwork and well as putting it in AR, callbook, on their webpage etc. They thought it a good idea, but like most goverment departments it will take ages to get it through various levels of approval.

73

Wayne VK4WDM
VK2CSW
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CSW »

VK2CJC wrote: I have experienced many radios. New and old. And I have never seen a radio that can set its TX band edges in the menus.

And I'm pretty sure ham radio deluxe cant do that either.

Could you tell us which radios you refer to and exactly how to do it.
I am sitting in front of a FT857d and HRD has the custom bands set up which limit the "travel" of HRD within the limits.

It doesn't modify the radios abilities, it merely nobbles HRD's ability to "adjust the VFO".
______________________________________________________________
Colin
VK2CSW
Where are we going? And exactly why am I in a hand-basket?
VK2CJC

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CJC »

And this thread is soooo long that the early posts are now out of date and no longer accurate to the current situation.

The WIA have taken the matter to the ACMA and although the ACMA would never admit it, they now know they went a little to far. The WIAs view that radios capable of out-of-band should not be an issue in the hands of a licensed amateur is a view I share with some passion. I hope the ACMA respect the WIA views in future.

I think the "interference" problem only started when all the cheap chinese radios became available. Up until then radios capable of transmitting in the police band etc, were only owned by hams. But now, people are buying cheapo chinese rigs because they go up to 480MHz and cover CB, so every man and his dog has a police band transmitter. Well maybe thats an exageration, but there is loads around, and all unlicenced and untracable.

I understand completely why this is a concern to the authorities. But why do licensed hams get hassled because of it.
VK2CJC

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CJC »

VK2CSW wrote:
I am sitting in front of a FT857d and HRD has the custom bands set up which limit the "travel" of HRD within the limits.

It doesn't modify the radios abilities, it merely nobbles HRD's ability to "adjust the VFO".
Ah OK. I'm not that familair with the prgoram.
But that hardly alters the legal status of the 857 :)

The only radio I have ever changed TX limits is my Wouxun hand held. With the aid of a computer and programming lead. As far as I am aware, no japanese amateur transciever can do this.
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2MUS »

The only radio I have ever changed TX limits is my Wouxun hand held. With the aid of a computer and programming lead. As far as I am aware, no japanese amateur transciever can do this.
although I don't recommend it to every one you can directly enter data into the memory of the 897 and most FT's which allows you to set a lot more then the menu allows. currently I can transmit out of band on 80M (with a dummy load of course) but not on any other band. Don't attempt to program directly to memory unless you full understand what you are doing you can end up with an unusable radio.
From the Hill in Muswellbrook. VK2MUS
Occupation: Amplitude Modulator :om:
VK2CJC

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CJC »

VK2FJRS wrote:new radio's can be set to not transmit outside the bands via the menu system - first thing I did when I got my new rigs was to setup the menu's including the band widths.
I have a 857. Which menu do I use?
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Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2AAH »

The other day I received a call from a work colleague (a firefighter) who has his F call and likes to collect "cool" radios. He had just bought a Chinese "hack" of a Motorola XTS5000 UHF handheld with direct keypad frequency entry. He was under the impression that his F call gave him the authority to use a radio that could tx from 380-470MHz... I pointed out to him that ACMA have been doing these audits- and the fact that his line of work did not give him the authority to use this radio.

While the Chinese continue to manufacture & export radios like these I really can't see ACMA being able to control their use. I can only see the problem getting worse.

Cheers,

Richard
VK2AAH
VK2CJC

Re: ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

Post by VK2CJC »

VK2AAH wrote:He was under the impression that his F call gave him the authority to use a radio that could tx from 380-470MHz... I pointed out to him that ACMA have been doing these audits- and the fact that his line of work did not give him the authority to use this radio.
So long as he sticks to 70cms he'll be fine. But to use it on fire channels is very dodgy.

This is maybe an education issue. These chinese hand helds are being advertised as wide band CBs. You cant blame your average punter for buying thinking he'll be able to use them. If the ACMA push the issue, they could stop ebay and other advertisers selling them. Just like you cant sell a linear amp on the CB list.
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