ACMA inspecting lots of F Calls

[VK2FAK]

Hi All...

Is this just promoting the WIA ...or is someone going to say,,,,in brief..no need to breach copyright......just in a nut shell.
why the inspections...

And Rob I still think you did the right thing....if they had of done the decent thing and replied to your email saying "keep reading we will be writing something about that soon." you would have considered that reasonable and continued membership.,,no doubt at all......


John

[VK3ZFS]

This is a good example of the WIAs lack of social media presence, it took 2 months and countless emails to realise there was a problem.
The WIA must set up a on line forum (forum/twitter/facebook) to get feedback from the wider VK community in near real time, not after the xmas holidays

[VK6POP]

hi all

I'd advise you to read the comment in the April A.R.mag on this topic - the Board was onto it as soon as the subject reared its ugly head, and its taken al this time to get to where it is, and the matter isnt yet fully dealt with.

Read and inwardly digest the advice about the legal obligations and actual powers of the R.I.s - they don't have automatic right of entry unless they believe you're causing interference to Tv or something else as important. Otherwise they have to obtain a warrant to enter your place without your permission, in which case they have to convince a magistrate that you're up to something. You have every right to say "sorry it's not convenient at the moment, can we make a time for you to come back".

The RIs claim (as previously posted by some who have been "inspected") that they are looking for equipment that will transmit out of our bands - we are presently asking the WIA to clarify this because every commercially made rig is capable of transmitting outside of Amateur Bands without modification - try the spot between 3.7 MHz and 3.75 Mhz - it's no man's land for everyone but your set will Tx there. And of course any Standard or Foundation licensee using HF would possess an off-the-shelf transceiver capable of transmitting outside of their allowed bands, and in the case of F calls, far more power than their license allows.

So we're presently working on asking the ACMA to have some transparent policies, or better yet ANY policy.

cheers

Bob
VK6POP

[VK2XSO]

It may be time to change the regulations on foundation licences to something more sensible.

Lets just look at the power levels.
A stock standard commercial radio can be operated by anybody and it is not uncommon for those radios to transmit 25 Watts carrier power.

What is it for a foundation licensee ?

[VK2MUS]

It may be time to change the regulations on foundation licences to something more sensible.

Lets just look at the power levels.
A stock standard commercial radio can be operated by anybody and it is not uncommon for those radios to transmit 25 Watts carrier power.

What is it for a foundation licensee ?

Hey buy a CB unit and aN AMP transmit to your hearts delight at what ever power you want as long as you don't setup interference no one of the CB band is goint to care - or do the exame, buy a 100W HF transciever off the shelf and make sure you turn it down to 10W - not very logical. Follow NZ up the A and S calls then up the F call power. Keep the bands as they are. For such an isolated and large country why have we got such lower power restrictions

the peak envelope power limits for the highest available license classes in a few selected countries are: 2.25 kW in Canada, was 2 kW in the former Yugoslavia, 1.5 kW in the United States, 1 kW in Belgium and Switzerland, 750 W in Germany, 500 W in Italy, 400 W in Australia, India and the United Kingdom, and 150 W in Oman.

[VK2HRX]

hi all

I'd advise you to read the comment in the April A.R.mag on this topic - the Board was onto it as soon as the subject reared its ugly head, and its taken al this time to get to where it is, and the matter isnt yet fully dealt with.

Read and inwardly digest the advice about the legal obligations and actual powers of the R.I.s - they don't have automatic right of entry unless they believe you're causing interference to Tv or something else as important. Otherwise they have to obtain a warrant to enter your place without your permission, in which case they have to convince a magistrate that you're up to something. You have every right to say "sorry it's not convenient at the moment, can we make a time for you to come back".

The RIs claim (as previously posted by some who have been "inspected") that they are looking for equipment that will transmit out of our bands - we are presently asking the WIA to clarify this because every commercially made rig is capable of transmitting outside of Amateur Bands without modification - try the spot between 3.7 MHz and 3.75 Mhz - it's no man's land for everyone but your set will Tx there. And of course any Standard or Foundation licensee using HF would possess an off-the-shelf transceiver capable of transmitting outside of their allowed bands, and in the case of F calls, far more power than their license allows.

So we're presently working on asking the ACMA to have some transparent policies, or better yet ANY policy.

cheers

Bob
VK6POP

Bob,

An obvious question> If the WIA was onto this as soon as it readed its ugly head then why the long silence? Why not a post on the forum saying "were onto it", why not a reply to an email sent? Does the WIA consider that the AR mag is the only way to communicate on this sort of topic? Seems the WIA copped a bit of flack simply becase they didnt communicate to the community they represent.

Posted in the interests in understanding how the WIA operates.
If you think this query is better sent ot the WIA directly and not on this forum please let me know.

Compton

[VK2GOM]

WIA Response.

In my email inbox today I had a personal reply from Michael Owen, President of the WIA.

Without physically copying/pasting the email, he apologised for not having replied to my communication, which he states was "one of a number raising related issues over a period."

He also stated that the WIA sought clarification from the ACMA via FoI legislation, and attached .pdf copies of the two pages from the current Amateur Radio magazine. He obviously knew I was no longer a member, by enclosing the scans, or I would have read them myself in the magazine.

Whilst I am appreciative of Michael's reply, it does not change the fact it took an unacceptable three and a half months for any kind of response or acknowledgement to my original communication. And it wasn't a run-of-the-mill query either - it was a query that had potentially serious and legal implications that could affect the whole of the Australian amateur radio fraternity, which reading the attachments he sent, are confirmed by the WIA.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK2MUS]

Honestly, could you imagine some of the problems some amateurs would cause using 2.5kw? Some individuals annoy their neighbours with just 100w. Oddly enough, more full call amateurs cause interference problems than F calls.

I agree that interference is the main restictive condition on any increase in power levels. But do you honestly believe that 10W is a suitable level in general for the foundation licence?. True you can get a long way on 10W if your antenna is spot on , if the loss from coax etc is mininised etc, etc- me I am interested in qrp so I turn it down to 5W - the lowest available on my rig and I am interested in antenna theory more so then modifing or building a rig, but I think to most F calls especially the young they get a 100W unit which is fairly standard and every now and then pep it up a bit to get that contact they can't with 10W (who has not push the pedal to the metal now and then on the car).
Bring the F call upto say 50W would I think solve a lot of problems
Maybe concentrate on inference in the foundation exam a bit more (from memory there was no question on interference in my exam) . I simply told my neighbours to note down the time and date if they had any interference on their TV etc and I could check it against my log but the truth be known - it is more likely that I will recieve interference more from their wide screen TV's then they will from me.

I just don't think that 10W was a logical choice( infact I don't think the foundation licence was well thought out) - the general agrument given is usually to restrict the amount of interference from F calls but in the F call is using a commercially made radio usually a commercially manufacturerd antenna and is really the last person that is likely to cause interference even if his power levels were increased within the limit of the radio. I think the incentive to upgrade for an F call should be the band allocations not the power level as such.

[VK2GOM]

...it is! Upgrade and you can use, for example, 20m. And a whole host of other bands.

On 20m, I use a piece of wire out of the bedroom window window, fed by cheap RG58 coax (with a coax PL259/joiner/PL259 along the way!) and an impedance matching box. No earth either. The antenna is shrouded in below the level of the house, and overshadowed by a huge gumtree.

I use just 10W on JT65 data mode (another reason to upgrade!) and regularly work up to 18,000km into the UK and the Canary Isles.

The difference between 10W and 100W is only around 2 S-points, remember!

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK2MUS]

Upgrade and you can use, for example, 20m. And a whole host of other bands.

In my case I am upgrading - started before I even got my licence thro. I did radio back in the 60's so its a matter of recalling the info from way down in the back of the brain which at my age is not an easy feat. A lot of F calls don't have any electronics background and just want to operate. However I can't see for the life of me where passing a electronic theory exame will make me a better operator and at my age I really do not intend to build another radio, my shaking fingers simply cannot do fine soldering any more.

The reason why there was such a response to the Foundation licence was not the removal of morse but the removal of the theory exam ( you really can't call the F exam a theory content exam, you only needed to know Ohms law)

You known one of the silly aspects of the F call is the no mod regulation - if one wished the F calls to progress to the upper grades then probably allowing them to build a commercial kit or two (under supervision) would be a benefit however the law states that the desktop mic I have on the shelf cannot be fitted to a F call radio as it is a mod - anything on the back is ok for an F call but everything from the back to the front cannot be changed from the manufacturers spec. If I buy a second hand qrp made up kit from say an A call I cannot operate it under the law This is why I find the f call badly designed.

Times have changed - some want to build gear and experiement but some also just want to operate. I just think that if the foundation licence was thought out better there would be a lot less ACMA inspectors visiting F call shacks

[VK4MA]

It is gratifying to read the editorial in this month's AR magazine.

The letter / email from the ACMA featured some days ago in this thread is a laughable interpretation of the Radio Communications Act as it pertains to amateur radio. The ACMA is currently in a state of "wishful thinking" and is trying to interpret and apply the law as "they wished it to be" rather than accepting its inherent limitations.

A number of legal facts are undisputed:

There is no certification standard applicable to Amateur radio equipment. The ACMA are thus trying to create a certification standard by stealth. If there is no certification standard then an Amateur Radio can have any frequency coverage, any power output, can be as wide as a "barn door" etc etc. The way the Act protects other spectrum users is via other "behavoural" provisions which dictate that an Amateur operator cannot use the non-certified ham radio outside his allocated frequencies, cannot operate beyond his power limits and cannot cause undue interference etc etc. In short, spectrum order is maintained not by setting a standard for the equipment used, but by placing rules and restrictions upon the behavour of the Amateur operator. The team that drafted this Act had the view that hams were "big boys" who could be trusted to operate their non-certified equipment in a respectful manner.

Now it is arguable if hams are indeed worthy of such trust, but the law is the law, and if the ACMA is not happy with the laws they have been given by the legislature, it is the ACMA's responsibility to procure amendments to the applicable legislation. Of course, the behavoural provisions are also a lot more difficult to enforce - but this does not mean that the ACMA can just twist the true intent of the legislation to make its job easier.

The WIA is correct and appropriate in meeting this issue "head on" as the new ACMA legal interpretation (if upheld) has the potential to significantly reduce the type of equipment that ham radio operators can use. Before dismissing the risks here as being over exagerated let me provide a real life example.

Earlier this year an Icom M802 marine radio was purchased by a novice license holder who planned to use the radio on ham bands whilst sailing around in his yacht (outside of Australian waters I might add). He preferred the Icom m802 as it is a dedicated marine radio and would provide extended life in a marine environment. He was visited by an inspector and instructed to dispose of the radio as the M802 is not certified for marine use in Australia. The Amateur explained that he did not propose to use the radio on the marine bands but had purchased it for ham radio use. The inspector applied the new ACMA legal interpretation and argued that as the radio did not have the features typical of a ham radio that it must be disposed of. This matter was referred to the WIA and as far as I am aware the matter was decided in favour of the Amateur.

What this example highlights is that the ACMA is trying to corral Amateurs into owning commercially manufactured Amateur specific equipment which is and never was the current intention of the applicable legislation.

Some may argue that it is time that Amateur gear should be government certified (ala CB, marine, commercial and land mobile gear) - if you subscribe to this theory then we are effectively saying that radio homebrewing, commercial radio modifications etc are dead in the water. You can also accept as a given that ham radio prices will significantly increase as gray imports will become illegal whether you purchase from a gray importer or self import as such imported radios will not have certification.

It is not good enough for the ACMA to have a "she'll be right mate" attitude in respect to the uncertainties that its interpretation of the law creates (refer the AR editorial for examples) - ie that an inspector will not take any action in respect to what they deem to be inappropriate Amateur equipment if the operator is doing the right thing or is a good bloke or if the radio sort of looks like a ham radio. The law exists so that we have clarity around what is or is not permissable. Of course it is always subject to interpretation. The ACMA has however now set out its interpretation in writing and if we do not agree, it is incumbant upon our representative body (the WIA) to challenge this

In short, it is possible that the ACMA has always had its currently stated interpretation of the legislation or it has recently dreamed up this new interpretation to make its life a little easier. Whatever the situation, the erroneous interpretation of the legislation has now come to the attention of the Amateur community and it is vital that the WIA "knocks this issue on the head" before it gets out of hand. This is the primary reason why we should all be renewing our WIA memberships this year as I suspect the issues outlined here are not going to go away any time soon

Cheers
Paul - vk4ma

[VK2MUS]

What this example highlights is that the ACMA is trying to corral Amateurs into owning commercially manufactured Amateur specific equipment which is and never was the current intention of the applicable legislation.

It leaves one between the devil and the deep blue sea - interference is assumed to be from the Amateur ( and in some cases the F calls) but in the situation as we have at the moment any tom dick or harry could have gone to the Hamfest and purchased any type of gear they wished and take it home and start operating - for example I listen to a conversation on 40M well before I got my licence - two 'gentlemen' without callsigns have a good chat - from the lingo clearly CB's who like the fact that the band was not full of every kid with a cb. As I had not recieved my licence I was unable to 'suggest' to these two to go and get a licence.

The problem is that radio gear is freely available to the non amateur and they are in part hidden from the law. If I buy a mobile phone or even a braodband pre paid usb unit I have to identify myself and a record is kept but if I buy a wiz bang 100W radio and a amp a commercial antenna etc there is no record of it. Simply by having the law state that one must be identified and recorded when purchasing tansmitters would over come a lot of problems. No need to licence the actual gear simply record the sale details - this would decrrease a lot of the illegals. I am sure amateurs would not sell off any of their surplus gear to buyers who do not have a licence

Its a bit of a laugh actually I am restricted to commercially manufacturered gear and restricted power levels and first cab on the rank if there is interference but a kid from down the road can buy what ever he likes legally and yep illegally use it. Some thing is wrong there.

I scan the police channels now and then and it is common to hear music over the local calls - it is not amatuers that are transmitting (well at least I hope not) its some kid with an over the counter transmitter wanting to be a DJ - why are they even allowed to buy the gear in the first place.

[VK2XSO]

We have such power limits for a VERY good reason - interference.

BOLLOX !!!

My IC-208 with my fancy store bought antenna can run at it maximum power and it does not cause interference depending on who is holding the microphone.

The reason is political. We've seen it MANY times before. With Limited licences, then novices and the dropping of morse requirements.
Trivial and lame excuses have always been common.

Honestly, could you imagine some of the problems some amateurs would cause using 2.5kw? Some individuals annoy their neighbours with just 100w. Oddly enough, more full call amateurs cause interference problems than F calls.

What, like some hams aren't already running this power ? Yet the finger is being pointed at F calls.
If the RF Power knob went to 500W, do you have ANY doubt that on all of these radios it would be cranked up to full power by their advanced call owners ?

The regulations already cover the cause of interference. So you're saying that standard and advanced licence holders don't obey these rules, so what hope do foundation licence holders have of obeying them.

The point is that the radios and equipment can be operated in accordance to all the rules by foundation calls without effort. It is the rules that we have created with make it more difficult and for no better reason that the politics of .... "I did it so they should have to do it too."
We've heard it before with morse and it was a rotten excuse then, it's a rotten excuse now.

We need to find rules which are sensible and practical.
A carrier power of 25W would not make any difference to interference.

At what power do RFDS radios operate on HF ?

We trust the public to operate radios at these power levels yet we do not trust foundation licence holders.
Why ?

Because we are trying to encourage them to upgrade and without power as an incentive they won't ?
THAT IS A POLITICAL EXCUSE, not a technical one !

We can go on with this bullshit pretending that there isn't an issue or we can fix it and make the hobby better.
Stop treating foundation licence holders like idiots. Yes, some of them might ask some silly questions, but the point of this hobby is to learn.
We only have to listen to the attitudes of some of the operators who won't even talk to foundation calls.

It's also time to allow them to construct equipment. Again, don't tell me this is asking for trouble, most of the advanced calls I know could not build even
kit radios and make them work. I would propose that homebrew equipment of less than 5 watts (pX & pY) be allowed.

I would expect that a lot of foundation calls will never build their own transmitters like most other hams don't and for much the same reasons.
But those who want to learn, who want to tinker, we want to encourage them. LEARNING and EDUCATION are our #1 priority. Lets encourage it.
Just look at how our rules are being interpreted by obstructionists. Can't change the microphone on a radio because it's not what came with the radio.
THIS IS BULLSHIT and we need to stand up against it.

[VK2MUS]

I would like a S call or an A call to tell me why if I turn my power up to 100W on the yaesu 897D would I be causing interference - there are a lot of S call and A calls out using the 897D well above 10W and apparently not causing interference - I fail to see why an Fcall would cause interference and a S or A call not. Its a long time since I built a radio but I would think that it is more likely or possible to generate a bit of interference in a home brew then a top of the line latest technolgy transceiver (which is what F calls are restrictred to)

[VK3DXE]

I would like a S call or an A call to tell me why if I turn my power up to 100W on the yaesu 897D would I be causing interference - there are a lot of S call and A calls out using the 897D well above 10W and apparently not causing interference - I fail to see why an Fcall would cause interference and a S or A call not. Its a long time since I built a radio but I would think that it is more likely or possible to generate a bit of interference in a home brew then a top of the line latest technolgy transceiver (which is what F calls are restrictred to)

It's not that you WILL cause interference, more about knowing what steps to take IF you do. Having said that, a power increase of 10dB may well push you over the threshold with the neighbour's TV, sound system, etc.

[VK2MUS]

It's not that you WILL cause interference, more about knowing what steps to take IF you do. Having said that, a power increase of 10dB may well push you over the threshold with the neighbour's TV, sound system, etc.

Well said but then this applies to all calls not just F calls. I think you might find that a large proportion of the F calls are a bit more educated about Radio then is generally accepted. The other thing about the F call that is illogical - I cannot build and operate a home brew - I might cause interference if I do - ok accepted but as far as I can see in the Act I can repair a commercial manufacturered unit as long as I don't modify it - I can not say change the freq of the unit by changing the cystals etc - that would be modification but I can repair a FT 101 and use it legally. This supports the view of Vk2xso that the foundation licence was a knee jerk policitically driven move not a well thought out plan.

[VK7DR]

I would like a S call or an A call to tell me why if I turn my power up to 100W on the yaesu 897D would I be causing interference - there are a lot of S call and A calls out using the 897D well above 10W and apparently not causing interference - I fail to see why an Fcall would cause interference and a S or A call not. Its a long time since I built a radio but I would think that it is more likely or possible to generate a bit of interference in a home brew then a top of the line latest technolgy transceiver (which is what F calls are restrictred to)

Ah, so. I have to admit this is an amusing thread. Interference is a technical problem, not a political one, as you will all agree. Where the politics comes in is in the definition of a technically capable person. Is a standard licence holder such? Is an advanced licence holder?
You see, AR has now fallen into the same hole as the professional pursuits - who has a bit of paper and who has not. Once upon a time an amateur radio operator was without doubt technically capable - it was simply not possible to get a licence without being so. But, just as we now have so called "technicians" popping out the doors of the local university campus who know about as much about radio as the little old lady next door, we now have amateur operators with so called "advanced" calls who still don't know one end of an antenna from the other. You only have to listen to some of the conversations about antennas to realise this. This said, however, there remains a solid backbone of operators who "do know", and we (for I proudly count myself as one of them)recognise just how silly, politically motivated and just plain wrong some of the current structure is and why it is so hard to refer to such things in a technical manner when they are not technically motivated, except by this one simple gradient - the fact that it is no longer possible to define the competence of an operator by his having passed a licence test. That we do so is a just so story which reflects our current acceptance of mediocrity in every thing.

It becomes clear why we have a tiered licence structure nevertheless. It is accepted that there must be a range of adjustment and learning; that the operator will not have "apriori" the skills and knowledge they should have after years in the pursuit.
But current conditions tend to short circuit this process - ie, it is possible to "swot" the advanced requirements and pass a rather simplified, multi choice questionarre and thence gain a so called Advanced Licence without actually having had the years of learning and experience which once was implicit in the holding of an Amateur licence.
So now, we have the endless chest beating, excuse making and above all, the fear driven concerns we see in this thread. None of which would have been relevant or even thinkable 40 years ago.

There is some mention here of "home brewing". What, exactly? Tell me what you would "home brew" these days. What would an F call like to home brew? His own transceiver? His own automatic antenna tuner? You see, building kits is not home brewing in the true sense. Home brewing of AR equipment requires all the skills of design and construction which go into making those same "commercial" rigs we use. How many have this capability?
So, I would not be even slightly concerned if the F call did not have the "no home brewing" limitation. It is based on a false, politically measured notion of technical competence. (The notion being that a competent person would not hold an F call)

Now, we come to your question regarding "interference" being more likely to be caused by "home brew" equipment. Wrong. You see, once again it is a false notion base on the likelihood of technical competence being somehow compromised - where the real problem is not the technical as such, but the lack of a proper method of measurement of such skills. IF you contrast this with what I just said regarding the F call, you can see the ambiguity - that fact that there is no longer a certain measure of competence which would allow - without question - that the amateur operator is to be trusted to build and operate their own equipment.
We are not building crystal sets any more, you see. We are not making two valve radios, nor are we any longer in a society where the only likelihood of interference was actually transmitting a harmonic or splatter over the local broadcast station.

Things are different now - and the laws reflect this difference. What bothers me however, is the constant constellation of the "power" argument. Let's face reality here, the endless calls for the regulations to be changed stem mostly from a personal desire to justify ones own sidestepping of those same regulations. The regulation is a bad one, yes, as it does not reflect the true situation nor need for learning driven outcomes. The F call should have been a time limited entry point - not an AR licence in perpetuity.

As for the real thrust of this thread, the simple fact is that some people are idiots, they deliberately flout the law. So the law comes down on them. One should ask the question then, why does the law in its full weight, not come down on the idiots on 27mhz? Why does the band even exist any more? The law, it seems, comes down where the most noise and danger occurs - people interfering with public services is wrong and dangerous and it is also possibly a lot easier to be seen doing something about that, particularly when you are carefully ignoring the elephant in the room.

Instead of whining about all the crappy little points which get up our collective noses, it would be far better if the "amateur community" (and I say that with tongue firmly planted in cheek) could actually live up to its own traditions in a way which through its own behaviour automatically exemplified the needs, drives and expectations which would entice any new call to strive for the greatest skills and knowledge the hobby can produce. That it no longer does this, except in small, highly charged areas, is a reflection of our technologised society, and I have little doubt that the future of AR is not going to reflect its past. Nevertheless, to the degree this is possible, it should be so - for if it isn't then we can indeed expect the laws to gradually change to reflect our mediocrity and thus our need to be "controlled" - perhaps even legislated out of existence.

[VK2MUS]

Probably the solution is to change the law so F calls can only have a dummy load attached to the back rather then an antenna. Sorry I was being farcastic, sorry sarcastic – (got a bit of F interference there).

[VK3GCP]

The F call should have been a time limited entry point - not an AR licence in perpetuity.

Ah, now we get into the fun bit!

As much as that would encourage people to upgrade, you would then lose a fair few, such as the people who maybe cannot pass a higher test. Like most of the under 16 year olds. My 12 year old brother certainly only just managed his F call, saying "Times up, upgrade or lose it" would drive too many people away.

Upgrading should be a personal choice. I am currently studying for the upgrade because I want to, not because I have to. I also know of some people who have tried to upgrade multiple times, but just can't get there head around the subject matter. Does this mean that they should no longer be allowed on the air? how else are they going to learn!

[End Rant ]

[VK7DR]

As much as that would encourage people to upgrade, you would then lose a fair few, such as the people who maybe cannot pass a higher test. Like most of the under 16 year olds. My 12 year old brother certainly only just managed his F call, saying "Times up, upgrade or lose it" would drive too many people away.

Upgrading should be a personal choice. I am currently studying for the upgrade because I want to, not because I have to. I also know of some people who have tried to upgrade multiple times, but just can't get there head around the subject matter. Does this mean that they should no longer be allowed on the air? how else are they going to learn!

[End Rant ]

Well, I learned just about every thing I needed to know to pass what we now call an Advanced licence by the time I was 14.
The question here is - why do you want to be an Amateur? I always thought the sweat went with the territory. Are we saying that AR ops now only need to be good mike button pushers? AR is a technical tradition - basically if you want in, then you have to be able show some cred. That's the way its always been. Are we saying to hell with all that, now?

So no, I am afraid I cannot agree that "upgrading should be a personal choice." Not for an entry level call. The way I see it, those who simply "want to be allowed on the air" without putting any further effort into AR, should buy themselves a CB. But, if you want to become a part of a century old tradition which offers the unusual privileges that AR does, then you also have a duty to uphold its traditions, both technically and as a member. Otherwise everything that has gone to create and maintain Amateur Radio becomes no more than faded piece of history.
I might add that: the fact that some people do not have the ability, technical or otherwise, to find their way into amateur radio is a just so story - not a "problem" that needs to be solved.