Green Interference!!!

[VK3MQ]

When an MR16 halogen down-light failed in the shack it seemed the perfect opportunity to try a LED replacement and save some energy. How wrong could you be?

A suitable unit was purchased from a national supermarket chain, for something like $12, which made it an attractive buy. It was duly fitted and the results were more than acceptable in terms of the illumination provided. At that stage no rigs were running and the lights were simply switched off with the intention of returning a couple of hours later for the "150 Net".

And now the problem emerges. Imagine the horror of hearing S7 noise all over two meters and it didn't get any better by rotating the beam. Eventually a peak of 10dB over nine was found, in the direction of the shack!

To maximize the efficiency rating of the lamp, whilst running from a 12V line, the manufacturer had built a small switching regulator into the base of the lamp and this was producing the hash. Their logic was perfectly reasonable based on the power consumption of the LED module - 3V @ 1A. Using a dropping resistor would have lost about 10 Watts, which would not have been a significant improvement over a 20 Watt halogen unit.

There may be other types of MR16 LED replacements available which are silent, but be very careful when making a selection.

73
Rob,VK3MQ

[VK2GOM]

Interesting, Rob.

I have also experienced 'noisy' light bulbs such as yours.

I see that the Australian government in its wisdom has now mandated a ban on selling incandescent light bulbs, and only low energy LED/compact fluorescent lamps (CFL's) can be sold from now on.

I'm not sure what problems will appear in a few years when the bulbs all start failing and they are to be disposed of. The contain all sorts of exotic (and toxic) products - including Mercury, whereas their predecessors contained only a metal base, a thin glass envelope, some coiled tungsten wire, and a harmless inert gas.

Hardly surprising that being 'green' once again triumphs over common sense and lack of foresight into longer term polloution and health issues

An interesting read about these lamps from an EMI/RF and health point of view is at:

http://www.hese-project.org/hese-uk/en/ ... t_2009.pdf

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK3MQ]

Hi Rob,

Yes, there are many factors to consider when selecting an appropriate light bulb. Fluorescent tubes (which is what the new bulbs are afterall) are not new and some disposal techniques leave a lot to be desired. My local council offers a "detox your household" service at least once a year and I am now saving old batteries and any failed fluoro's for disposal at that time.

Having said that, the purpose of my post was not to start a debate on the wider "green issues" but to allert us poor long suffering hams about another source of electronic pollution.

73's
Another Rob
VK3MQ

[VK3ALB]

A friend that works in the medical industry told me of a situation where LED lighting was fitted inside and RF shielded room for an MRI system. When he ran the room test he found an unusually high noise floor. Turned out to be the LED lighting.

Caveat Emptor

[VK4GHZ]

What about candles in the shack?

Get you in the "mood" for a QSO!

[VK5APN]

G'day

OK I'm restarting an oldish thread. But was wondering if anybody has any hints on this.

For about 2 months now, I have been having S9+40 noise on the low end of 2m. I was unable to get a direction of this RFI by turning my array. Until I took out the shack mounted preamp (23dB gain NF 0.3) and added some attenuation. The noise was not always present. When not present, the S meter on the 910H was 0, even with the preamp in circuit (as it always has been), I live in a very quiet 2m RF environment - until recently.

Initially only was present during the day and evening time. My first thought was a cheap Solar Inverter...... Now it is there all the time.

Turned off all the mains to our house and still there. So out came the portable 3 ele yagi and did some DF. It was coming from the neighbours house. Problem was he was a hard person to catchup with, due to his and my work shifts.....

Long story short - it was originating from his light circuit. After quizzing him, he did mention that he recently bought some LED down lights off expensive-bay. He also mentioned that since installing them he has also noticed that his FM radio has become a bit noisy as well.

A month has passed and have finally got hold of a sample of an extra one that he had bought. Plugging it into a Battery, Down light transformer (both Switch mode and Iron Core) and still noisy. I have also tried winding the cable to the lamp through a toroidal core (about 20 turns), still no luck.

With a small sense antenna and the lamp about 2mts away, I get S9+40 noise on my IC910 as well as 7 other 2m radio's. I think I have eliminated that it is not the radio HI

Doing a Google search reveals that this is not uncommon for LED down lights. But interesting however they do mention that you will need a LED down light transformer for these lights. Now I thought that this was hype to get the consumer to spend more in their store. Is anyone aware of this being either true or fallacy?

Where to from here? Or am I doomed to try and operate when he is not home or asleep.

He is now turning the lights off when not needed. He left them on 24/7 due to being cheap to run and for security?

Are there LED down lights out there that are RF quiet?

Do I raise this with the ACMA??

Operate on higher bands (432 and 1296 are not affected)

Or do I look for another QTH??

Any suggestions truly appreciated.

In Need

Wayne

VK5APN

[VK2GOM]

Hi Wayne,

Try the diplomatic thing with the neighbour, and if that fails, call out the ACMA.

Since under a section of the Telecommunications Act it is an offence to cause interference to telecommunications, they will verify the noise source with their gear, then issue a compliance ticket to the owner of the LED lamps, stating they must be fixed within x days, and if not, further action will be taken.

I had the ACMA on my side to combat powerline noise from faulty pole hardware. I diagnosed the problem myself with a small Yagi. It went from the power company saying "nothing to do with us" (trying to fob me off) to them replacing the hardware at ACMA's insistence over the course of about 2 months. Now the noise on 2m is gone.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK3AZZ]

Hi,
I have exactly the same problem with some 12V LED downlights that I fitted to my house. They are running a conventional iron cored transformer (Nelson).

The LED downlights weren't exactly cheap either being the supposedly better "CREE" branded ones.

What made it worse is I didn't discover the problem until some months after I put the lights in as I don't generally do 2m at night.

I was going to try some 0.1uf capacitors across the 12v and some ferrites at the base of the LED light, but haven't done that yet, so can't comment on whether that will work.

There is an interesting video that I saw about testing these sorts of lights, but was concentrating on HF interference and Mains powered lights (not 12V). The principle would be the same though.

Worth a watch at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8zMhjXcmoA

Cheers,
Mal (VK3AZZ)

[VK2AVR]

Try the diplomatic thing with the neighbour, and if that fails, call out the ACMA.

Since it under a section of the Telecommunications Act is an offence to cause interference to telecommunications, they will verify the noise source with their gear, then issue a compliance ticket to the owner of the LED lamps, stating they must be fixed within x days, and if not, further action will be taken.

Above emphasis mine - I would attempt to source some alternatives and test them for noise, or as you have done ask around and see if anyone knows particular models that are noise free. If you go down the ACMA route and they slap an order on him he would have to remove the lights and go back to "old technology" and be quite irritated with you.

This is going to be a wider spread problem with CFLs and LED lighting and more and more dirty switchmode supplies from China so having a "go-to" list of good bulbs will save everyone a lot of trouble!

Geoff VK2MIA

[VK2GOM]

...as long as it doesn't personally cost you money, Wayne. You shouldn't have to pay to ensure your neighbour stays within the confines of the law.

Perhaps suggest to him he buys some different lights and tries those to alleviate the interference they are causing (as a kind of 'test' suggestion) and see how he takes it The response will quickly be evident as to whether you are going to get the problem sorted on the diplomatic level or not.

Or even invite him in and show the interference as received on the radio. Him hearing the problem might strengthen your case.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK2AVR]

...as long as it doesn't personally cost you money, Wayne. You shouldn't have to pay to ensure your neighbour stays within the confines of the law.

God forbid a ham should open his wallet to help solve a problem that's affecting him.

I know HAM stands for "hardly any money" (or a tight grip on the money that does remain) but from the neighbour's perspective.. "can you randomly try several different brands of light globe until you find one that doesn't interfere with my radio" - yeah right! He would have to replace all his globes each time, it's not workable. His point of view would be "why should I have to pay extra I bought it in a store therefore it should be OK to use". As a consumer that is a reasonable expectation - that if you buy it in a retail outlet it's legal.

The retail outlet is in turn buying it from an importer, who in turn is buying it from an overseas factory. How far does this need to be chased? This is where a ham op with some expertise can diagnose the situation and advise the ACMA, not to slap a notice on his neighbour but to chase down someone selling a product that causes RF interference. It can't possibly be standards compliant if it emits that much interference, surely..

Personally, i'd rather spend some pocket change to find a solution (1 x sample bulb from a few manufacturers) and then go to the neighbour and say "buy X product and the interference will go away, your FM reception will come back". That's FAR more useful in my opinion than throwing the book at him for causing interference and expecting him to spend his own money and time fixing it. Without the knowledge part of the equation he is lost at sea.

Or play the legal game, but expect him to throw the book back at you one day when your antenna tower is 10cm above the council limits or some other insignificant indiscretion. I just don't see the value in pointing to rule 64 subclause 3B when the consumer has no idea what it has to do with him saving energy on his electricity bill.

Sorry to rant, but I just think it's sad that as a community we are too thrifty to put some time, effort and pocket change into fixing what will be a ubiquitous problem in a few years' time. Imagine what happens when ALL your neighbours buy RF-emitting lights. Surely it's better to do a bit of legwork now to nip it in the bud? Laws be damned, they move too slowly to help.

Geoff VK2MIA

[ZL1RS]

Imagine what happens when ALL your neighbours buy RF-emitting lights

... and they will ! And install the throughout the house along with their Plasma TV sets !

[VK5APN]

Rob, Mal and Geoff

I appreciate the time you have given in replying.

The neighbour is very approachable, it's just trying to be able to see him due to our (seemingly) opposing shifts and our Family commitments. He does not mind the metal shrubbery growing in the back yard. He thought that it was for CB, but when informing him, he responded "Oh so you do JOTA". Apparently he was an ex CBer and also belonged to the Scouts.

He wants to be able to help me out and is the reason for the donation of a sample. He was the first to mention Ferrites and filtering (he knows a little about electronics I suspect).

We live in a small rural town and know how word of mouth can spread if things are not handled diplomatically.

I am prepared to spend time in sorting this out for him as well as for me. I understand his situation as well. He has bought lights and they work as lights. Just because he lives next to me, they are not OK. If someone further away had them (and they probably do) I wouldn't even know about it. Then again if I was interfering with his prime time TV viewing, the situation could become interesting.

Yes I do not want the relationship with him to sour as like all Hams, antennas grow and change, his tolerance to them could change if things turned unpleasant.

I have rung L&H today and they are aware of RFI from LED down lights. They even have interference in their shop on their FM Broadcast RX. But did mention that some are quieter than others, and worth a try.

He is also allowing me to bring in a 2m radio into the store and to try out a few lights in the shop to see which ones produce less interference. Using a combination of LED lights and transformers.

However the cost per individual light is going to be a lot more than the total of the ones that he has already bought (20).

I fear that this RFI may not be totally eliminated. It will only get worse as the stores stop stocking the incandescent globes. Everyone wants things on the cheap and will buy the cheaper stuff. Maybe every one is a HAM (hardly any money).

Thanks for the You Tube link, makes interesting viewing and will look at this latter in further detail.

I intend to provide him with a solution (doing the ground work myself) and see how it is received. Then work from there.

So if anyone has travelled this path before, can you inform me on which brands etc are the better ones, and any possible cures.

I have done some further tests. I do not normally operate on the HF bands (mainly concentrating on the 2m band atm) but the interference is evident from 10m through to 2m. I will do some further tests on the Spectrum Analyser at the QRL.

So get ready for the increase in RFI from a backyard near you.

Thanking you in advance

Wayne

VK5APN

ZL1RS, just saw your post. Thanks Bob, perhaps I need to find a property like you as well as going portable in my activities on 2m. May have to come to this.

Regards

Wayne

[VK3RX]

Are you able to check the neighbours on the other sides of his place? They may also be getting interference on the FM broadcast band.

If he was aware that it was more than just you getting the interference, that might be extra motivation to fix the issue.

[VK4FLR]

Hi Guys, I replaced all my 240v GU10 50w tungsten d/lts with warm white 40deg 240v 7w LEDS & had to fit .22mfd 275v rated caps across the 240v supply to each one to shut the RFI noise down on their built in minature S/M internal power suppy - & no problems now . just a slight hash trace on 40/80m band which doesn't bother me . Not sure if the 12v LED versions have this noise problem .?
73's Frank

[VK4UH]

Re-opening an old topic.

There have previously been requests for advice or suggestions for brands/types of domestic LED down lights that do not cause QRN.

I have discovered that the type recently installed in my own kitchen reno are causing significant QRM on 50 MHz.

I have not yet pulled out one of the new lights, "management" may have some issues with that, to see what type have actually been installed.

Can anyone recommend a type, that they have actually used themselves, that does not have the interference problem?

Regards

Kevin VK4UH

[VK2ZRH]

Hi Kevin,

Why don't you try subscribing to the ARRL's RFI email list reflector ? RFI@contesting.com

See: http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi

You can ask advice there, even though it's predominantly 110-120 V oriented. The lumenaires generally come from the same manufacterer sources.

[VK3ZAZ]

I am using 20 fluoro replacements with LEDS'.
Ballasts removed.
Instant on instant off
NO QRM
The only qrm around here comes from REPCO S/Mode battery charger, if I forget to turn it off in shed under tower.
I have twenty solar panels 100 feet away no noise form them either.
Power lines have become noisy in past few years blocking my Pacific direction.
All in all cant complain..

[ZL1SWW]

Hi,

Interesting all this talk about LEDs and RFI.

I had heard about an issue where a user decided to change all his incandescent lights on his boat for LED lights. Great light output but the RF hash coming off them was drowning out the Marine VHF radio.
This was bordering on a danger to life and limb at sea where you can't hear VHF reception. I think they ended going back to bog standard bulbs to get over the problem. Pity they didn't try bypass caps to shut them up.

Have heard the CFLs make a racket as well. Got some in the shack here and tuning them on and off did not make too much difference here but the antennas are a wee way away.

Pity these governments don't check EMC rules before trying to ban incandescent and making us buy these RF generators!


Cheers,

Simon ZL1SWW

[ZL3OZ]

Havent tried the 12v down light LED but a few weeks ago we got one supermarket 13W Philips warm white mains rated bayonet LED replacement for incandescant. I like the extra light it produces and low heat and I did a good tune around on various bands to see if I could hear an increase in noise floor, heard nothing so fitted them in various places around the house, mainly my workshop and shack. No noticeable increase in noise floor and much improved light and efficiency......
..... I stopped just now writing this and took one (13WLED)fitted in a portable batten holder on a cord, placed it on the shack desk and used a coax lead sniffer (about 100mm long out end of coax lead) to sample it using my IC7100.

It has a broad hummy hiss detectable about 200mm away across the uhf and vhf bands on (rig set to ssb) and then diminishing down (sniffer closer for same sig strength i.e. sniff a bit short on hf) right down through HF into broadcast band. General broad spectrum noise but not radiating very far and no specific harmonic birdies that I found.
Not a scientific test but acceptable as a indication. The keyboard and computer screen actually make more noise around the shack desk.

On the other hand my electrician turned up lastr year with a mains op big LED down light for my workshops which he reconed would be great. It was like turning on the sun in my basement workshops, I loved the light, but we tried it on a fly lead b4 cutting hole in ceiling and oh woe. 40mtr band S9+++ over entire band. I didnt test further. He fitted Flouro tubes in what seemed std long fittings....same thing. It turns out he was trying to do me a favour and they were "non strobing" type which reads.....Switching power supplies in place of inductive ballasts, running at hundreds of Khz. Bugger. Out they came and ballasts went in.
Active Electrical tell me all ballast type flouros going out of stock to be rplaced by the noisey ones... Darn.

Ken
ZL3OZ