Signals in the 50.0 to 50.3 MHz segment are the least likely to disrupt pictures or audio of a Channel O transmission.
That is why the eastern states are only allowed to transmit in this part of 50 to 52 MHz.
Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
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VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Whoa guys! This is getting a bit stupid!
Forget all the legal-type babbling. The first rule in interpretation of any legislation or set of rules is: what is the meaning in plain English and what is the interpretation that a lay person with a average command of the English language would make.
The LCD is written in plain English and must be interpreted in plain English, and in this case the English is very plain
part 2. If the licensee operates the amateur limited station in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland or the Australian Capital Territory, the licensee must operate the station:
(a) in the frequency band 50.000 MHz to 50.300 MHz only.
The key word is ONLY. It means in plain English "without exception" or "always the case."
If you live in those states, and you operate above 50.300 you are operating illegally. No if or buts, no playing round with the wording, you are illegal, and if anybody hears such a transmission it should be reported to the ACMA.
If we keep asking ACME for interpretations of regs whose meaning is plainly obvious, we are going to come across as a bunch of idiots rather than a group of seriously-minded radio experimenters whose claim for spectrum access should be taken seriously.
Sorry to be so blunt, but our bid to have primary status on 50MHZ will not be helped by people trying to bend the rules, or wasting time by asking silly questions.
73
Wayne VK4WDM
Forget all the legal-type babbling. The first rule in interpretation of any legislation or set of rules is: what is the meaning in plain English and what is the interpretation that a lay person with a average command of the English language would make.
The LCD is written in plain English and must be interpreted in plain English, and in this case the English is very plain
part 2. If the licensee operates the amateur limited station in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland or the Australian Capital Territory, the licensee must operate the station:
(a) in the frequency band 50.000 MHz to 50.300 MHz only.
The key word is ONLY. It means in plain English "without exception" or "always the case."
If you live in those states, and you operate above 50.300 you are operating illegally. No if or buts, no playing round with the wording, you are illegal, and if anybody hears such a transmission it should be reported to the ACMA.
If we keep asking ACME for interpretations of regs whose meaning is plainly obvious, we are going to come across as a bunch of idiots rather than a group of seriously-minded radio experimenters whose claim for spectrum access should be taken seriously.
Sorry to be so blunt, but our bid to have primary status on 50MHZ will not be helped by people trying to bend the rules, or wasting time by asking silly questions.
73
Wayne VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
For those who still have trouble interpreting the regulations, it may be instructive to become familiar with the whole 50MHz situation, right from the beginning.
We originally had access to 52-54MHz only, because of the metropolitan Channel 0's in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
They then shifted to channel 10.
By the way, did anyone notice where I positioned the "only" in that statement above?
It's in the same location as the LCD everyone is quoting above.
The power limits described in the LCD are then applied as a logical AND and not as a logical OR.
I digress.
The vacated Ch 0 allocation then became home for the SBS service.
Then a proposal, largely prepared by Peter Stackpole VK1RX (SK), an active amateur and employee of the then DoTC, was put forward, in a move to justify why a small sub-band in 50MHz be granted to VK amateurs.
I scanned this document in this afternoon, and have attached it to this post - see below.
(Please excuse the quality, as it's a scan of a photocopied photocopy from many years ago.)
I kindly suggest everybody advocating operation above 50.300 in the eastern states become absolutely familiar with this document.
Read it cover to cover.
Then read it again.
It is the beginning of the journey that saw a sub-band be granted on 50MHz.
If you are too lazy to read the entire document, or don't understand the technicalities involved, at least read the summary/conclusion.
Although the sub-band has be extended in the intervening years to encompass 50.000 - 50.300MHz, it is still a sub-band only.
Now, just in case that doesn't sink in, let's consider the following diagram. (Attachment 1, from the report)
(I will make the assumption you are all familiar with (or have the ability to research this yourself) the power densities of a vestigial sideband signal. ie; analogue TV)
I have added frequency markers, to add some perspective with DDQ0 Toowoomba.
As you can see, the protection ratio at 4MHz above vision carrier (50.172Mhz) is a constant 45dB all the way up to almost 51Mhz.
It is foolish to think that operating up on 50.350 and running 400W will somehow present less of an interference issue.
If 400W is ok at 50.350, then running 400W would be fine at 50.172 - 50.300MHz, given the p/r is the same.
But it's not.
We originally had access to 52-54MHz only, because of the metropolitan Channel 0's in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.
They then shifted to channel 10.
By the way, did anyone notice where I positioned the "only" in that statement above?
It's in the same location as the LCD everyone is quoting above.
The power limits described in the LCD are then applied as a logical AND and not as a logical OR.
I digress.
The vacated Ch 0 allocation then became home for the SBS service.
Then a proposal, largely prepared by Peter Stackpole VK1RX (SK), an active amateur and employee of the then DoTC, was put forward, in a move to justify why a small sub-band in 50MHz be granted to VK amateurs.
I scanned this document in this afternoon, and have attached it to this post - see below.
(Please excuse the quality, as it's a scan of a photocopied photocopy from many years ago.)
I kindly suggest everybody advocating operation above 50.300 in the eastern states become absolutely familiar with this document.
Read it cover to cover.
Then read it again.
It is the beginning of the journey that saw a sub-band be granted on 50MHz.
If you are too lazy to read the entire document, or don't understand the technicalities involved, at least read the summary/conclusion.
Although the sub-band has be extended in the intervening years to encompass 50.000 - 50.300MHz, it is still a sub-band only.
Now, just in case that doesn't sink in, let's consider the following diagram. (Attachment 1, from the report)
(I will make the assumption you are all familiar with (or have the ability to research this yourself) the power densities of a vestigial sideband signal. ie; analogue TV)
I have added frequency markers, to add some perspective with DDQ0 Toowoomba.
As you can see, the protection ratio at 4MHz above vision carrier (50.172Mhz) is a constant 45dB all the way up to almost 51Mhz.
It is foolish to think that operating up on 50.350 and running 400W will somehow present less of an interference issue.
If 400W is ok at 50.350, then running 400W would be fine at 50.172 - 50.300MHz, given the p/r is the same.
But it's not.
- Attachments
-
- 50mhz_eng_report0001.PDF
- (668.69 KiB) Downloaded 793 times
Adam, Brisbane
vk4ghz.com
VK4GHZ on Youtube
VK4GHZ on Odysee
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vk4ghz.com
VK4GHZ on Youtube
VK4GHZ on Odysee
10 things that happen when you stop checking Facebook constantly: http://tiny.cc/t5h7cz
How to quit Facebook: https://www.consumerreports.org/social- ... -facebook/
-
VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Thank you for posting that Adam. Even though it is dated it still gives a very good summary of operating conditions in the 6M band. It is still the source document for the present LCD, the only difference being a shift in the upper limit to 50.3MHZ.
I am trying very hard to get my head around why anyone needs to operate above 50.3 anyway!
Let's stop mucking around arguing, accept what we have got, and get on with making contacts!
73
Wayne VK4WDM
I am trying very hard to get my head around why anyone needs to operate above 50.3 anyway!
Let's stop mucking around arguing, accept what we have got, and get on with making contacts!
73
Wayne VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
The reason why operation above 50.3 is desireable is that there is a 6db increase in the power output which can be run, and if you are into digital EME contacts, that 6 db makes the difference between have a successful contact and not having one at all.
Foe Es contacts, the ability to get a 6 db increase is not so important.
If we are not allowed in the 50.3 to 52 MHz part of the band, why does the preceding paragraph of the LCD state that Advanced class licences can operate from 50 to 54 MHz.
David
Foe Es contacts, the ability to get a 6 db increase is not so important.
If we are not allowed in the 50.3 to 52 MHz part of the band, why does the preceding paragraph of the LCD state that Advanced class licences can operate from 50 to 54 MHz.
David
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
David, which part of the graph above do you not understand???vk3auu wrote:The reason why operation above 50.3 is desireable is that there is a 6db increase in the power output which can be run...
It's pretty simple?
Adam, Brisbane
vk4ghz.com
VK4GHZ on Youtube
VK4GHZ on Odysee
10 things that happen when you stop checking Facebook constantly: http://tiny.cc/t5h7cz
How to quit Facebook: https://www.consumerreports.org/social- ... -facebook/
vk4ghz.com
VK4GHZ on Youtube
VK4GHZ on Odysee
10 things that happen when you stop checking Facebook constantly: http://tiny.cc/t5h7cz
How to quit Facebook: https://www.consumerreports.org/social- ... -facebook/
-
VK2XV
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
This is my last unprovoked post on this subject...(hurray I hear you say).
Firstly, thanks to those who have provided concrete and logical support to the first response to the instigator of this thread - mine.
As a refresher may I repeat, edited, that very first response of mine here below for the benefit of those who have not started from the beginning of the thread. I am waving this around here in cyberspace as I fear my smart-a*** sarcasm in subsequent posts (born out of frank dismay) may have given the false impression that I am not clearly convinced that 50.3MHz to 52.0MHz is off-limits to EastCoast ops. Here 'tis...
In a perverse world it has transpired that myself, who is a professed and well-worn pooh-pooher of the more zealous aspects of the "true DX-ers" behaviour, has spent time and thought in an attempt to help ensure that we have the best chance of getting the whole shebang in the future. Even more perverse is that the instigator of this thread is a self-professed "true DX-er". What a crazy world we live in....
Finally, one of the most truly astounding justifications presented for believing that 50.3MHz to 52.0MHz is legal for East Coast ops is the "secret" information that
Apparently the nincompoops in the RTA expect to us to use commonsense (and a minimal amount of self-preservation instinct...). Silly bureaucrats....
So there's a loop hole for you - if you feel the scenery, or the road surface, is better on the right side of the road you are free to drive there, at least in NSW.
Jeez Louise....
73 Steve VK2XV
Firstly, thanks to those who have provided concrete and logical support to the first response to the instigator of this thread - mine.
As a refresher may I repeat, edited, that very first response of mine here below for the benefit of those who have not started from the beginning of the thread. I am waving this around here in cyberspace as I fear my smart-a*** sarcasm in subsequent posts (born out of frank dismay) may have given the false impression that I am not clearly convinced that 50.3MHz to 52.0MHz is off-limits to EastCoast ops. Here 'tis...
Secondly, I cannot agree with the logic that states that challenging the original content of this thread and/or seeking clarification from the governing authorities with the motivation of ensuring compliance with our LCD is a worse option than allowing this notion to spread and potentially resulting in operators running 400W with any mode in the range 50.3MHz to 52.0MHz. I agree that it may make us look stupid to ask questions about the bleeding obvious, but not as half as stupid as keeping stumm and not carrying out our "self-regulating" responsibilties so often pleaded for by the ACMA.VK2XV wrote:I must say I am puzzled as to why the notion that the 50.3MHz to 52MHz range is available to East Coast ops continues to have life. My copy of the LCD clearly states (to me anyway) that because I live in NSW if I operate below 52MHz it must be in the range 50.0MHz to 50.3MHz. If I was within the distances as stated from a normal station or translator I cannot operate below 52MHz at all. Further I says if I am an East Coast op (VK1, VK2, VK3 and VK4) I must restrict power and modes to those stated. What am I missing ?
I never had any doubt about this until I came to these forums as these restrictions seemed to be entirely logical "engineering" decisions designed to ensure that East Coast ops do not interfere with CH0 stations - firstly by coralling operation to an area far enough below the CH0 audio channel and far enough above the vision carrier to reduce interference, and secondly, restricting power levels. The "ensuring" part comes from prohibition of any operation which interferes with CH0 reception.
In a perverse world it has transpired that myself, who is a professed and well-worn pooh-pooher of the more zealous aspects of the "true DX-ers" behaviour, has spent time and thought in an attempt to help ensure that we have the best chance of getting the whole shebang in the future. Even more perverse is that the instigator of this thread is a self-professed "true DX-er". What a crazy world we live in....
Finally, one of the most truly astounding justifications presented for believing that 50.3MHz to 52.0MHz is legal for East Coast ops is the "secret" information that
Well, bugger me, I just checked the official road rules here in NSW hot off the RTA site. To my amazement, although it is stated there that "The general rule in NSW is keep to the left", nowhere does it specifically exclude driving on the right hand side of the road !!!!50.3MHz to 52.0MHz is not excluded
Apparently the nincompoops in the RTA expect to us to use commonsense (and a minimal amount of self-preservation instinct...). Silly bureaucrats....
So there's a loop hole for you - if you feel the scenery, or the road surface, is better on the right side of the road you are free to drive there, at least in NSW.
Jeez Louise....
73 Steve VK2XV
-
VK4TS
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Steve, and all,
I think you need to understand a few things...
I am not a DXer, I dont chase 'wallpaper' I enjoy the hobby of AR however from my home location inside CH0 I have never operated 6 M - I have a remote location that I contest from and have considered operating 6 from there but was disappointed to find out its just inside the no fly zone..
on a recent trip to Tamworth NSW (another Ch0 translator) a local ham VK2JH John said to me on air that he had received an email response to a query about operating low power on a non interference basis on six metres from ACMA stating that he was able to operate from 50.3 to 52 Mhz.
This struck me as odd and when I returned home I looked at the regulations first by reading the WIA abridged version and then the relevant act..
It confirmed what the ACMA had told John but was in direct conflict to what I had understood to be the case for 20 plus years..in reading the act I could see the point that there is not a section that says you cannot operate on 50.3 to 52 Mhz. Further in the addendum section it refers to excluded frequency ranges these do not include 6 metres...
As has been said here several times its a wasted exercise...we need to focus our energies on the upcoming potential release of the band from broadcasting...
Actually Steve yesterday you where the topic of conversation when we were explaining the vagaries of translations of the bible from Greek to German and English and how things can be misinterpreted...it was a classic example of how churches came into being over different interpretations of the Nicene and Apostolic creed but thats anther story..
I think you need to understand a few things...
I am not a DXer, I dont chase 'wallpaper' I enjoy the hobby of AR however from my home location inside CH0 I have never operated 6 M - I have a remote location that I contest from and have considered operating 6 from there but was disappointed to find out its just inside the no fly zone..
on a recent trip to Tamworth NSW (another Ch0 translator) a local ham VK2JH John said to me on air that he had received an email response to a query about operating low power on a non interference basis on six metres from ACMA stating that he was able to operate from 50.3 to 52 Mhz.
This struck me as odd and when I returned home I looked at the regulations first by reading the WIA abridged version and then the relevant act..
It confirmed what the ACMA had told John but was in direct conflict to what I had understood to be the case for 20 plus years..in reading the act I could see the point that there is not a section that says you cannot operate on 50.3 to 52 Mhz. Further in the addendum section it refers to excluded frequency ranges these do not include 6 metres...
As has been said here several times its a wasted exercise...we need to focus our energies on the upcoming potential release of the band from broadcasting...
Actually Steve yesterday you where the topic of conversation when we were explaining the vagaries of translations of the bible from Greek to German and English and how things can be misinterpreted...it was a classic example of how churches came into being over different interpretations of the Nicene and Apostolic creed but thats anther story..
-
VK2XV
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Trent, and All,
Yes - I know I said my last post was the final one on this thread and I am violating my own undertaking - but bear with me.
Trent, although I had raised eyebrows when I saw you had brought religion into the debate (braver man than me mate...), I take your point. This debate has a more than passing similarity to the creation vs evolution debate. But let's agree to leave religion out of it.
I am content that my original understanding of the LCD has, IMHO, been confirmed by those, IMHO, who have a greater experience and knowledge than myself. That is, I understand 50.3MHz to 52MHz to be a no-go zone for VK1, VK2, VK3 and VK4. You and I disagree on that point - so be it. I also acknowledge I have, in parts, descended into smart-a*** comments and sarcasm. I apologise for that. It is a particular wickedness of mine that does neither elevate the level of debate nor the perception of my sincerity.
As a general comment to all - some of you may or may not remember similar toned posts from me in the distant past (under VK2ZTO) about what I perceived as pompous postings in the forums. Due to the subject at that time (I hesitate to dredge up the topic again, but it contained the numerals 110...) I made an undertaking at that time to not operate below 52MHz. I have stuck religiously to that self-imposed embargo. BTW - before jumping to assumptions about my stance on 110 take the trouble to check it out...
Further, as a result of this debate I have been even more educated about the origins of the conditions of access to the band below 52MHz. This makes it much more clearer to me that my particular attraction to 6M has nothing to do with those origins. I freely admit I am stuck in the mode of the good old days on 6M in the 1960's. I have had a couple of good old 1960's style contacts on 52.1MHz just a couple of days ago so I should be content with that.
Therefore, I extend my self-imposed "above 52MHz only" on-air operating embargo to include commenting in forums to ANY issue pertaining to operation below 52MHz as I really have very little interest in operating in that part of the band and therefore should leave the commentary to those who do. If I do relapse in the future please roundly remind me of this undertaking.
73 Steve VK2XV
Yes - I know I said my last post was the final one on this thread and I am violating my own undertaking - but bear with me.
Trent, although I had raised eyebrows when I saw you had brought religion into the debate (braver man than me mate...), I take your point. This debate has a more than passing similarity to the creation vs evolution debate. But let's agree to leave religion out of it.
I am content that my original understanding of the LCD has, IMHO, been confirmed by those, IMHO, who have a greater experience and knowledge than myself. That is, I understand 50.3MHz to 52MHz to be a no-go zone for VK1, VK2, VK3 and VK4. You and I disagree on that point - so be it. I also acknowledge I have, in parts, descended into smart-a*** comments and sarcasm. I apologise for that. It is a particular wickedness of mine that does neither elevate the level of debate nor the perception of my sincerity.
As a general comment to all - some of you may or may not remember similar toned posts from me in the distant past (under VK2ZTO) about what I perceived as pompous postings in the forums. Due to the subject at that time (I hesitate to dredge up the topic again, but it contained the numerals 110...) I made an undertaking at that time to not operate below 52MHz. I have stuck religiously to that self-imposed embargo. BTW - before jumping to assumptions about my stance on 110 take the trouble to check it out...
Further, as a result of this debate I have been even more educated about the origins of the conditions of access to the band below 52MHz. This makes it much more clearer to me that my particular attraction to 6M has nothing to do with those origins. I freely admit I am stuck in the mode of the good old days on 6M in the 1960's. I have had a couple of good old 1960's style contacts on 52.1MHz just a couple of days ago so I should be content with that.
Therefore, I extend my self-imposed "above 52MHz only" on-air operating embargo to include commenting in forums to ANY issue pertaining to operation below 52MHz as I really have very little interest in operating in that part of the band and therefore should leave the commentary to those who do. If I do relapse in the future please roundly remind me of this undertaking.
73 Steve VK2XV
-
VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Hi Steve
I don't think your embargo on not commenting on anything below 52MHZ is a good idea at all.
I don't have a heavy truck license but that does not stop me commenting on heavy truck matters when those matters have a bearing on other road users.
The pending demise of TV BC on 50-52 MHZ means that we need to do some serious lobbying to get AR as the primary user 50-54MHZ. We are also going to need a revision of the band plan and license class access (I support the idea of standard class having access to the whole band).
We are going to need the collective wisdom and lobbying capacity of the entire AR family and your input is very important.
73
Wayne VK4WDM
I don't think your embargo on not commenting on anything below 52MHZ is a good idea at all.
I don't have a heavy truck license but that does not stop me commenting on heavy truck matters when those matters have a bearing on other road users.
The pending demise of TV BC on 50-52 MHZ means that we need to do some serious lobbying to get AR as the primary user 50-54MHZ. We are also going to need a revision of the band plan and license class access (I support the idea of standard class having access to the whole band).
We are going to need the collective wisdom and lobbying capacity of the entire AR family and your input is very important.
73
Wayne VK4WDM
-
VK2GOM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Hi Wayne,
Very valid points. Just a thought... the main interest in 6m in VK is generally composed of the members here. I wonder would anyone be prepared to co-ordinate a petition here, and collect names/callsigns/contact details and submit those as a petition to the WIA/ACMA?
VKLogger could be the ideal vehicle for doing this.
73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH
Very valid points. Just a thought... the main interest in 6m in VK is generally composed of the members here. I wonder would anyone be prepared to co-ordinate a petition here, and collect names/callsigns/contact details and submit those as a petition to the WIA/ACMA?
VKLogger could be the ideal vehicle for doing this.
73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH
-
VK4WDM
Re: Sensible use of the 50.3 to 52 Mhz allocation
Hi Rob
I have raised the issue of a petition on the logger in my post is reply to Bob ZL1RS's topic on the ZL access to 50-51 MHZ.
Our local federal member is a ham: Peter Lindsay VK4TO. I will have a word to him soon.
73
Wayne VK4WDM
I have raised the issue of a petition on the logger in my post is reply to Bob ZL1RS's topic on the ZL access to 50-51 MHZ.
Our local federal member is a ham: Peter Lindsay VK4TO. I will have a word to him soon.
73
Wayne VK4WDM