Is 50.110 as an international CF a lost cause?

[VK4WDM]

I think that we can regard the fight to preserve 50.110 for an international calling frequency and the use of 50.200 as a domestic calling frequency is lost.

I have been listening on 50.200 and 50.110 all the time whilst in the shack and only hear the very occasional CQ on 50.200 with hundreds from within VK being heard on 50.110. If I only answered those on the "domestic" CF and ignored those who are miss-using the international CF my log book would look very empty!

My reluctant compromise this: I always call CQ on 50.200 and 52.100 and only use 50.110 if there is no result from the other two frequencies. The results from Nov 8 to Jan 8 are very revealing:

Number of QSO’s within VK from a CQ on 50.200 1
52.100 2
50.110 97

To make matters worse, I was abused by a another VK for calling CQ on 50.200 where he was conducting some sort of local net. Another well meaning soul assumed that I was new to the band tried to “educate me” by explaining that the calling frequency was 50.110 and that the idea that it was for international contacts only had been dropped a long time ago!

This is worrisome given the impending SS cycle peak and the need to keep 50.110 and the low end of the band for international dx. I fear that this is a lost cause!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4GHZ]

I think that we can regard the fight to preserve 50.110 for an international calling frequency and the use of 50.200 as a domestic calling frequency is lost.

Wayne, I hear you, as I'm sure other DXers do.

... Another well meaning soul assumed that I was new to the band tried to “educate me” by explaining that the calling frequency was 50.110 and that the idea that it was for international contacts only had been dropped a long time ago!

Well meaning, stupid, or living in ignorant bliss?

This is worrisome given the impending SS cycle peak and the need to keep 50.110 and the low end of the band for international dx. I fear that this is a lost cause!

Absolutely.

We have a major problem in Brisbane, where it is considered OK to conduct a local QSO on 50.110.
Apparently, one excuse is that it lets others know the band is open.

Anyone with half a brain is probably wondering what is wrong with calling CQ, rather than just sitting on there, hogging 110, talking about absolute rubbish.

Hang on... others can't call CQ, because 110 is tied up with local QSO.
D'oh!
Silly me.

I could name the repeat offenders, and I am tempted to, but this wouldn't be helpful, nor do I think it will change their selfish attitudes and/or improve their poor operating skills.

We will just have to accept the fact, there are many that seem to think that a single hop Es contact during summer is DX.
Oh boy!

[VK3TPR]

Adam,

Would it be possible to put a banner heading on the 6 meter logger page re the calling frequencies, to lift the knowledge base and also as areminder ?

50.200 Australian local calling frequency

50.110 International Dx calling frequency.

I think it would be a very positive and constant reminder and may promote better operating practice

Peter

[VK4GHZ]

Hi Peter.

Adam,

Would it be possible to put a banner heading on the 6 meter logger page re the calling frequencies, to lift the knowledge base and also as areminder ?

50.200 Australian local calling frequency

50.110 International Dx calling frequency.

I think it would be a very positive and constant reminder and may promote better operating practice

The Logger has had "reminders" like this before, but this "in your face" strategy hasn't worked.
In other words, the bad habits are already entrenched.

The reminder message (about email address) you see at the top of the Logger is a "global" admin message.
ie; it appears across all Loggers (HF, 6, 2/70).
I could rewrite the Logger scripting to also accommodate local admin messages, but like I said, it hasn't worked in the past.

All is not lost though.
Everybody reading this topic can help and "do their bit", by taking the initiative, and call on 50.200.

Nobody is their right mind is going to monitor 50.200 if it's dead... so it is up to everybody to start using 50.200MHz.
A rising tide lifts all boats.

In addition to this, I would resist responding to domestic calls on 110.
Even though the band may be open, I usually ignore domestic calls on 110.
If it's a grid square I'm chasing, then I'll catch them later (usually after their QSO) once they're further up the band.

Likewise, if a VK is calling "CQ DX", then other VKs should not be responding.
Amazingly, being able to differentiate between domestic traffic and international DX is lost on a lot of operators.

The term "International Calling frequency" is quite specific.

[VK4WDM]

I have posted some of this in the PSK on 50MHZ topic but it has relevance here as well.

We have to be VERY careful with our use of 50MHZ. Our original plea to then regulatory body, the Spectrum Management Authority to have access to the lower part of 50MHZ was based upon the need for VK hams to have access for INTERNATIONAL communication and take part in INTERNATIONAL experiments designed to enhance the knowledge of propagation in the lower VHF spectrum. All other traffic was supposed to remain on 52MHZ. That was never going to work for a number of reasons, so a compromise was reached - international ONLY on the lower end of the segment and domestic on the upper end. With two calling frequencies: 50.110 for INTERNATIONAL ONLY and 50.200 for domestic.

So let's not beat about the bush - calling CQ on 50.110 for other than international contacts is WRONG! The fact that most of us do it (including me at times) because that is the only way we are going to get any contacts does not alter the fact, it is still wrong (and may actually be ILLEGAL.

(An important point to remember is that the 6m band plan is more than just a "gentle-persons agreement" - it was framed in close collaboration with the SMA, and the regulatory authorities, not just the amateur radio community, expect us to adhere to it).

Sooner or later, we are going to have to undergo an audit of our use of this segment, how well we are adhering to our reasons for asking for access to it, and how good we are at adhering to the rules. There are other players eying this spectrum. Defence is badly in need of extra room and we have had ADF fixed point stations operating for weeks at a time on the lower half of 6M.

It was a very hard fight to get access to 50MHZ and our grip on it is not very strong - a fact not well understood by newer ops on the band. Let's not risk losing it by doing the wrong thing.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK1XX]

There is so little activity on 50.110 and 144.100 that declaring it a sacred frequency is just nonsense.

[VK4GHZ]

There is so little activity on 50.110 and 144.100 that declaring it a sacred frequency is just nonsense.

And you live, where?
Try living in a city where there are significantly more local operators to contend with.

Irrespective of where you are, it just amounts to sloppy and poor operating to chat on the International Calling Frequency.
It demonstrates a complete lack of respect for others.
If the bandplan could be adhered to, then we wouldn't have this ongoing bloody boring tug-of-war over the lower part of 6M.

Anyone who has been on the 6M VK Logger would have seen in recent weeks where the DX (DU7/PA0HIP, real DX outside of the domestic bubble) had to be moved down off 110, so we had a clear shot. There were too many VK-VK QSOs occuring on 110.
Think about it.
What a ridiculous situation, DXers have to move down within the International window , because some selfish goose thinks it's OK to chat on 110.

It comes down to this; respect others, respect the bandplan, and there will be harmony down there.
Funny how some people are that arrogant, or just too plain dopey to appreciate that.

[VK5ZK]

Interesting discussion.

50.110 International Calling frequency

In the 6mx context, exactly what is "International"?. Possible answers could be (1) any station outside Australia. (2) Any station outside Australia worked on a mode other than E's, (3) Any DXCC country outside VK, etc.

Strictly speaking I guess "international" is any country outside Australia. Or is it outside VK and ZL. Or is it any one outside Oceania.?

I just don't know and I suspect there are many varying opinions about it.

It's a bit like "CQDX". DX? Different meaning for different people. Again, I have my idea of what "DX" means but I bet there are many others out there. In fact, it's a moving target depending on band conditions, solar cycles, time of year etc.

It's probably valid for any station to call CQ on 50.110. The operator may well be looking for an "International" contact.

Just when then is it "OK" to complete a contact on 50.110, or is it never OK?

One thing is for sure, many weak signal contacts would NEVER have happened if a QSY was attempted. Many new countries would NEVER have been worked if a QSY was attempted.

One thing we should all agree on is that a QSY from 50.110 is required operating practice for local contacts or in fact for any contact if the signals are strong enough to set it up. It was suggested earlier that a DX station HAD to move from 50.110 due to local (VK)QRM. I would have thought it was good operating practice to do just that. It is a "calling" frequency after all.

Like most dicussions there are some things that are obvious, some desirable, and some open to individual interpretation.

No local QSO's on 50.110 is very much in the obvious catagory.

[VK4CZ]

The 'International call freq' has been an issue in VK for the last 2 cycles... no new story here. And considering that this determination was part of the original submission for east coast VK to regain access to this sub-segment of the 6m allocation, it is a shame that the continued lack of knowledge demonstrated regarding the band plan has continued.

The rationale for the 6m sub-band plan is obviously completely lost on the newer entrants to 6m as what is now the 'norm' was never the intention of the allocation. Sad really!

Our attitude and discussion seems to be locked on a single frequency – and not the window that was granted for its international alignment for weak signal propagation experimentation and is defined within the band plan. The argument should be around the intended purpose of the allocated window and the call freq that resides within it.

But I’m afraid that the discussion and argument will fall on deaf ears.

In QG62, like other locations in VK I’m sure, domestic traffic is quickly QSY’ed off 110. A satisfactory result be it for the fact that the behaviour has not been completely modified and stations are moving to 115, 120, etc! Leaving 50.110 unusable due to the adjacent channel QRM created. This certainly has been an issue that has become endemic this Es season to the domestic traffic.

But conciliation is that we are not alone. The EU's, G's and W's all face the same issue.

Look to the UKSMG and their ‘Six News’ magazine – for over 15 years I’ve been receiving the magazine and there has been numerous articles published including a code of conduct for members. But it’s never worked. Similarly in the USA commentary has been leveled to the same issue for many years.

An allocation created specifically for advancing long distance comm's on the band regardless of country of origin, immediately becomes the focus of domestic traffic as these stations congregate near where the 'action' is.... the 'big guns' attract the 'small pistols'.... same as on HF.

To remedy this on 6m, the WIA agreed to make a determination within the 6m band plan that created a domestic call freq. on 50.200 which was not within the original plan. The lack of activity there just further reflects the lack of knowledge that exists regarding why and not how the band plan is utilised.

By way of example look at the fiasco that is now 28.490 in VK. The attempt to create a call channel on that freq by relatively new entrants to amateur radio based purely on the assumption that because of existing behavior that right was extended to make the claim. No research was undertaken to understand the existing plans or international precedents, but the claim duly made.

Fortunately in that case the WIA again determined the actions of the domestic traffic inappropriate and ‘claimed’ a separate domestic channel inline with International precedence. But unfortunately even in the last few days the behavior has not been modified and a station operating on the freq will be chastised and asked to “QSY of the call channel”. I’ve even witnessed DX’peditions also being asked to QSY as they were interfering with the call channel.

The defeatist attitude of maximising station strategy vs correcting behavior will be the only way to create an outcome that will lead to a successful outcome for DXers. Operator skill and attitude will be the differentiator. ‘Search and pounce’ methodology often more closely associated with HF contesting will be a critical skill for 6m DXers come cycle 24. Get in, work it and leave them wondering ‘what’.

[VK3BA]

Aaah Happy Australia Day.

It's like why do people have a local weekly net/sched on the 2m FM Calling Freq?? There are a heap of other FM freqs available.

[VK5ZK]

Nik, You wouldn't get away with that in Adelaide. The "Call Channel Police" would have you in a few minutes.

You know, I don't ever remember seeing anyone posting on the logger that they were calling and listening on 50.200. I they did, I for one would listen there for sure.

We talk about it in forums like this but never do anything about it. I am as guilty as anyone else.

It's a bit late in the season now but I might just try it next opening and see what happens.

If most of the active operators did the same it might just have an effect.

So now it seems a QSY off 50.110 is not enough. It has to be a long way off that frequency. How about a frequency? Is it above 50.2?
I NEVER hear anyone suggesting that.

Let's put some firm proposals up, and ACT on them, not just conmplain about the current situation.

I for one will try it. Anyone else?

[VK5PJ]

hello to you all,
maybe it is better for us to concentrate on getting people to QSY further up the band (above 50.200) rather than trying to define the way 50.110 is used?

As 5ZK stated, DX can be many different things at differing times of the year / cycle. We have to understand that people will always congregate where there is the chance of some excitement like moths to a light.

The LCD does not define how we use the sub band of 50 - 52 (50.0 - 50.3 for the east coast) excepts for modes and power so the is no legal basis for its declaration as being out of bounds. I think we have all tried the education angle, I know I did while I was writing for ARA magazine after 3OT chucked it in and all I got out of that was hate mail and nasty phone calls

So how about a different angle, call all you like on 50.110 and define it as an activity frequency (or some other snazzy name) then ask people to QSY above 50.200 of contacts within the same country?

just a thought..

[VK4GHZ]

Let's put some firm proposals up...

So how about a different angle...

Although well meaning, why reinvent the wheel?

Need we remind everybody of the established WIA 6M Bandplan ???

The existing bandplan is quite specific, and accommodates all interest groups.
If adhered to, it would alleviate much of self-generated agro and politics that ruin the band.

50.100-50.150 International Window.
Please refer to your favorite dictionary, if you have trouble believing what "International" really means.

50.150 and above Domestic use

50.200 is already defined as the domestic call frequency

Not rocket science, or is it?

[VK5PJ]

Adam,
we have to re-invent the wheel because the habbits of operators have not changed in the last 20 years so waving around a "band plan" from an organisation that does not even represent 50% of VK amateurs is not going to solve the problem... it is not enforcable in any way, and when did you last hear of a prosecution by ACMA for not adhering to a WIA band plan?

I suspect this debate will get under the skin of many and cause many an argument but I suspect it will change little of what goes on unless those who want change, lead by example. (not pointing any fingers here)

Let's put some firm proposals up...

So how about a different angle...

Although well meaning, why reinvent the wheel?

Need we remind everybody of the established WIA 6M Bandplan ???

The existing bandplan is quite specific, and accommodates all interest grouos.
If adhered to, it would alleviate much of self-generated agro and politics that ruin the band.

50.100-50.150 International Window.
Please refer to your favorite dictionary, if you have trouble believing what "International" really means.

50.150 and above Domestic use

50.200 is already defined as the domestic call frequency

Not rocket science.

I do not want to loose the 50 - 52 MHz segment but I can see that we need to change our tack if we are to make any progress. The band plan is only voluntary and there lies the difficulty.

[VK5ZK]

50.100-50.150 International Window.
Please refer to your favorite dictionary, if you have trouble believing what "International" really means.

Well I did just that and to quote

"In American English, "International" is also commonly used to signify "outside of the country".

So ZL's qualify as International. Well now I know. Is that what it's really intended to mean? That was my original point. It ain't that easy.

50.150 and above Domestic use

50.200 is already defined as the domestic call frequency

Not rocket science, or is it?

Well not quite, according to my copy of the Band Plan. 50.220 to 50.240 is assigned to Digital DX modes and 50.280 to 50.320 to Beacons. Just what DX means in this context I am not quite sure.

Seems strange to me to call on 50.200 and then QSY DOWN as long as its not below 50.150.

I still feel it needs practical action by indicating on the logger that one is calling and listening on 50.200

Only then will there be the slightest chance of changing anything.

Now all we need is to be able to monitor BOTH 50.110 and 50.200 at the same time.

Come to think of it my rig can do that. Funny I never thought of it before.

[VK2JDS]

re International:
Dont forget P29 and A35RK too, Norm and Paul worked several of us in a few bursts on 50.110 a few weeks back.

Everyone listens to 110, usually its all well behaved , ops qsy'ing up the band. Only the odd dill who doesnt know causes a problem.
I was dissapointed to read the post saying there was little activity on 50.110 and 144.1 ! crikey, so many ears on these frequencies!
As a point the 144.2 frequency has become a aircraft net liason frequency, this goes to show if there is an interest in a frequency , operators will flock to it. If there is an interest generated in 50.2 it will get used, like in the off season looking for tropo or AE. 6 is its own special band though.. thats the magic of it
73's

[VK4QB]

Hi Guys,
As I see it, if we use the domestic calling frequency, the international stations avaiable to us ZL,A35, FK8,P29, DU stations (probably all of 5 not counting the ZLs)will be forced to use that too, as among us, who will wait all day tieing up a 6 metre rig and antenna for the exclusive DX stations which may not come on. Sure, we MIGHT get something new, BUT, how likely is that ? IF the band DOES open to other areas, THEN we can go looking down on the international calling frequency. As it is now that area will not be used, if we go to the band plan. How are we going to know when there are loads of rare DX available, is going to be the thing. Other than someone in all areas of Australia with continuos monitoring of the Inernational frequency ,coming on this logger and telling everybody, then it it is going to be sheer guesswork. Who is going to do the monitoring. ???
NAH , there's got to be a better way. All suggestions gratefully accepted !! Apply here
2 cents
Brian 4QB

[VK4GHZ]

Who is going to do the monitoring. ???
NAH , there's got to be a better way. All suggestions gratefully accepted !! Apply here

Brian, not hard at all.
My 12 year old IC756 has Dual Watch, which allows you to monitor both 110 and 200 (or whatever).
Most later model Icoms all have Dual Watch too.
If your rig doesn't have Dual Watch this day and age, then it's probably time to get one that does.

I use, and thoroughly recommend, two antennas for 6M operation.
1) a yagi
2) 5/8 GP vertical cut for 52Mhz

The 5/8 is quite broad in nature, and works quite well down on 50Mhz. It is mounted on a 20' length of 2" aluminium pipe bolted to the rear fence... nothing special at all. It was an old 27MHz 5/8 which cost me $20 2nd hand yonks ago, and easy to modify.
I use it for most domestic Es contacts over summer, as you just don't need a yagi for this mundane stuff.
It saves wear and tear on your rotator, and you can hear things from all over.
It is also very good for monitoring beneath 50MHz, and above 54MHz, whereas a yagi's performance would drop off.

I find it amusing (actually more annoying) when two local Brisbane stations are trying to exchange callsigns etc on 110, and it can take some minutes to complete.
Some of these guys are barely 10 miles apart, and are really struggling.
It is such a circus to witness.

And why do they have so much trouble?
They are using yagis pointed in God knows what direction, and are totally clueless as to what is around them.
Initially they think they're found something more exotic... but nah, but just a guy across town.

Everybody goes on about having a "backup" rig, so two antennas lends itself well if you have two rigs. (der!)
There are ways and means.

Operators should be aware of what is going on around them.
It's like driving, but with your eyes open.

[VK5BC]

I think this discussion could & will go on forever with no resolution unless we start to accept that the existing Band Plan is not accepted by the majority. 50.200 has been a failure and is not accepted by VK's for a variety of reasons, many of which has been pointed out on this forum (I've had one reply in 5 years of making odd calls there ( from VK4CP, good on you Adam). I think we are wasting our time waving the existing band plan around, it in itself has discrepancies in it e.g. it lists 50.150-50280 CW/SSB; DX or local and then lists 50.220-50.240 Digital DX modes, I would have thought we wouldn't wanted to mixed the digital with SSB/CW. I might add it also talks about allocations of VK beacon frequencies which I note many of our beacons don't conform with and also aren't spaced 2KHz apart as per the plan.

I might add I have also noticed some operators setting up scheds with international stations on the 50.110. I would have thought was as bad as talking on the call channel.

IMO the only way to resolve the issue is to do as Garry 5ZK suggests lets put a proposal together and get it approved. Maybe we need a spokesperson from each state who can get the ideas together for his/her state which can then be discussed and agreed by the total group. It wouldn't need national face to face meetings, it could all be done via the Net, Tel hookup, Skype etc. Once agreed nationally it would be up to all of us then to make sure all ALL operators are aware of the approved plan and conform to it.

As a starting point I think the local call freq should be 50.150 with Local CW/SSB contacts 50.155-50.220, Digital DX modes 50.220-50.240, Local Digital Modes 50.240-50.260, Local CW/SSB contacts 50.260-50.280. I also think we need to define what is considered Local and what is considered DX or International and this could be different for VK6 versus eastern states, lets face it VK6 working ZL is similar to VK5 working A35 (in distance anyway). I'm sure we can do a lot of education via the logger and if the more regular operators conform and encourage/explain the plan to others we can achieve a satisfactory outcome and move away from the emotional situation which now occurs.

After all most of us want a fair go at the international DX with a large percentage also wanting to be part of the local DX.

73 Brian
VK5BC

[vk3six]

This has been discussed for years with no apparent resolution.
It has also been discussed perochially without any due regard for exactly what the International DX window is all about, how it came about and how effective it was during F2 active periods.

Without generalising, unlike E layer, F2 DXing is more of an art and the 6M band is more often than not likely to be dead most of the time.
The International window came about to even the odds in working long distance weak signal dx stations.
They have to congregate somewhere so whats wrong with 50.110?

Whats wrong with 50.110 is that everyone wants a piece of the action, and I do mean everyone.
We are all guilty of conducting QSO's there, some more than others.
We all agree to the failed band plan and still go and call on 110, for DX.
Trouble is the DX they call is VK1 thru 8 not international (or ZL) which is barely international under any stretch of the imagination.

The other fact forgotten is the US national DX call chanel is 50.125.
Most US stations (me included) call on 50.125 or have you all forgotten that?
DXpeditions use 50.115 split or have you all forgotten that?

If and when the next cycle commences the F2 big guns (who are currently inactive) will come out of the woodwork, and the E layer will fade and this discussion will be academic when the band first opens across the Pacific or to Europe, where everbody and every station will find its own level.

The current group seem to be working the band well and moving off in the first over, a fe dont but we know who they are the same tiring VK2's and VK4's.

You can try if you like but IMO, all the band plans and state hookups in the world will not change the basic behaviour of the dx chasers on the 6m band.
So hoping for some national concensus so that in some way the long distance dx will be easier to work if you get everyone to agree to an already known protocol and convention is flawed.
Mainly because you are ignoring the main parties concerned who participate in DX working and it is the International Dx stations and what their habits and protocols are.
Those without CW skills will suffer the worst, those with poor stations will suffer as well and those locals who insist on calling for a VK to VK QSO on 110 as has happended some many times in the past three decades will get the short shove as in past cycles.