Winter field day & dates poll

[VK2KRR]

Just created a new thread for this so as to create a poll for date voting, may be easier. The email from John to Michael is pasted below.
Leigh.

Hi Michael (VK3AAK),

An interesting idea to have a winter Field Day. The existing Summer Field Day started on a trial basis in 1989 and quietly became a regular part of the calendar, and the same with the Spring Field Day some years later. It would be a good idea to at least run a trial event and see how it goes. I would have to get the official OK from the national contests co-ordinator, but I'm sure he would be quite happy with the idea.

It would be convenient to have the same rules as for spring and summer, although as you suggested it could be a good idea to have only an 8 hour section on the Saturday.

It would be necessary to avoid any clashes with other events. It would also help to find a date that would allow the event to be advertised in advance in AR magazine. The deadline for AR is the 10th day of the month before publication, so if it is possible to settle on a date before 10 May the details could be published in the June issue. To give enough notice, that would favour a date in July or August. Checking the calendar on the WIA web site I find these dates (Saturdays):

July 5 Gippstech
July 12 clear
July 19 160 metre VK-ZL contest CW
July 26 clear
Aug 2 clear
Aug 9 clear
Aug 16 Wagga ARC; Lighthouse Weekend
Aug 23 clear

I don't subscribe to the logger, but I can make a posting to the VHF reflector. In the meantime you may be able to get opinions from other people on the logger regarding the most suitable dates.

Cheers, John VK3KM

[VK4GHZ]

I would have thought trying to take advantage of the minor Es season during mid June would be the obvious time.
It may hardly affect 2m, BUT, it does make it a more attractive proposition for 6m stations to get involved.
It's a balance between the effort involved, versus the number of potential contacts to be made and enjoyment derived from doing that.

From my own experience two Summer Field Days ago, if it weren't for the 6m component, then the lack of 2 & 70 QSOs would have made it a waste of time.
Preparing, loading vehicles (three in this case) with gear, traveling, setting up, etc, doesn't happen in 10 minutes, so there needs to be some return to make it worthwhile.

That was a Saturday too, and it was noted there was much more activity on the following day.
Perhaps more people do their shopping on a Saturday.
So, not only choice of weekend is important, but being either a Saturday or Sunday can make a difference too.

There should be no excuses for home stations not to turn on the rigs and become active.

I don't subscribe to the logger...

How odd.
It would take less than one minute for John to register with the Forum and get involved... and even less time to use the actual Loggers themselves.

[VK2OMD]

There should be no excuses for home stations not to turn on the rigs and become active.

The complexity of the rules is a deterrent.

For example, as I read the rules for the last contest, an entrant is locked in to a particular mode of operation (portable / home / mobile) by their first participating contact (I assume that to mean one where numbers are exchanged). So, if one was to hand out a number when mobile, that locks out home contacts for the rest of the weekend.

We have learned that the concept of the 'spirit of the contest' is used to retrospectively devalue the efforts and achievements of some, and a cautious interpretation of the rules is needed to avoid the risk of being accused of cheating in innuendo launched by sour losers and reinforced by the contest manager's subsequent rule changes.

The rules are a triumph for complexity, but they aren't easily traced to the contest's fairly simple stated objectives. One could be forgiven in thinking that the contest is more about winning and managing who of the big guns wins, than encouraging field activity in a more general sense. The determination of the rules is not an open and transparent process, one of the reasons why you are not likely to see the contest manager in public discussion on the topic.

I suspect that a mid Winter field day will be relatively unattractive in the VK1 region as, lacking the benefit of coastal propagation phenomena, we depend on access to the highest mountains which is either impractical or just locked out in Winter due to road closures. Staging a field day after the peak of Es activity is a further nail in the coffin.

Owen

[VK3OP]

Good be a good excuse to get the 4WD dirty trying to reach the odd hilltop, (That's if we get any rain !)

[VK2KRR]

Gday. My thoughts...

- The rules should be left the same as Summer/Spring field day. Except I think an option for Home stations to have options of 8hr or 24hr would be an advantage to get more people involved from home as 24 can be to much for some.

- Re Owens comments, I dont really find the rules complex at all, they are quite simple. Also VK1s are heard quite regularly working stations in VK3, VK2 & VK7, 5, 4 on voice & meteor scatter quite regularly on the weekends, so it should be Ok for a field day weekend. And I have seen elevated ducts provide opportunities for VK1 stations in Winter time for sure. Canberra is naturally a difficult place to get a signal out of (hence lower distance records with WIA), but it can be done.

- The time period if left alone should be fine, but if given a different time frame should cover at least a morning & evening, as these times are when tropo is best but, as with Adams comment, if your looking for Es on 6m middle daylight hours are probably better for this type of prop. So really I think the full lunch time Sat to lunch on Sun is needed.

And one other thing, I have copied the Esperance 2m becacon here in Winter July 13th 2004 http://www.users.bigpond.com/vk2krr/ope ... .07.04.htm
So anything is possible.

Your views are much sort after to make the field day work.

[VK3HZ]

Gee Owen, your set of rules seem to have a lot more between the lines than the ones I've just re-read on the WIA site. I see nothing about the exclusion you refer to. It is unclear where Mobile operation falls or whether it's even included (I'd say Home Station, because it's probably an existing setup).

However, you can give out some numbers from home (/mobile?). You can then move up onto a hill, give out more numbers. You can then head back home and give out more numbers. What you can't do is submit a single log claiming points for all of that - only Home and/or Portable individually in an appropriate Section.

As for the rules being complex, I'm also puzzled about that comment. Sure, they're not written by lawyers (thank heavens), and they show signs of having evolved over the years, but they still seem pretty clear to me. After most FD's, there is discussion and Calls for Comment on rule changes on the VK-VHF Reflector where the majority of participants seem to be. The changes aren't merely at the whim of an individual.

Perhaps if you're not happy with the clarity of the rules, you should offer to redraft them

Regards,
Dave.

[VK4GHZ]

The complexity of the rules is a deterrent.

Yes, rules often change from year to year, so if you haven't been involved for a few years, it might seem like a daunting task to "be bothered" again.

I was saddened, but mostly annoyed, to hear that the Summer Field Day (or was it the Ross Hull?) rules had been changed to prohibit multi-square operation (QTH on the junction of two or more grid squares), by simply moving the antenna.
I believe the rules for 2008 included a new clause stating that the entire station must be in what ever square.
How pedantic.
To be equally pedantic, I put to everybody that the RF is actually emanating from the antenna, so who cares if the transceiver, PSU, etc, is 3m away from the antenna, or 30m away in a different square.
How pathetic that somebody would actually complain about this.

The operator concerned should have been given praise for showing some enginuity, but no, we see active discouragement from trying something different.
The real danger is, over time, these contests become very boring.
This is something that may not become apparent for some years, but, by which time, becomes too late to fix.
People move on, and follow more rewarding pursuits.

I would like to see a graph of participation, starting, say, 10 years ago to this year.
(Maybe number of logs submitted?)
I bet its a downward trend - I hope somebody can prove me wrong though.

It's about time common sense prevailed.
The rules, and a minimal set at that, should be re-written from scratch using the KISS principle, so that they actually meet the stated objectives.
To do otherwise, or worse: nothing, is simply incompetent and out-of-touch management.

This is a good opportunity to make things interesting and fun again.
Anything that encourages more activity, especially portable operation, is a good thing.

[VK4GHZ]

Your views are much sort after to make the field day work.

Leigh, how about adding June dates into the poll?

[VK3KM]

Hi all,

I left out the dates of the RD Contest from the list - it is Aug 16/17. Would it be an idea if the Winter Field Day avoided weekends that were consecutive with Gippstech or the RD? If so, maybe July 26 or August 2 could be the most likely dates. It would help if this could be settled within a week, so the details can go to the editor of "AR" magazine in time for the June issue.

Re Owen's posting: Entrants aren't locked into any particular section - you can enter more than one section if you wish (separate scoring sheet for each section entered).

The rules are simple, and full details of the rules are on the contest web page http://www.wia.org.au/members/contests/vhfuhf/.
This page includes downloads of contest rules, cover sheets etc. I have just updated this page and will post full details for the winter event as soon as the date is finalised.

Cheers, John VK3KM

[VK3KM]

Another reason to leave July 19/20 out of the list - Gippsland Gate Radio and Electronics Club hamfest.

[vk1da]

I'd be interested in participating. From a weather point of view, June is probably better than later in winter. It is known that the best snow falls are in July/August. The vk2 vhf group used to run a "midwinter" contest on, I think, the June long weekend (2nd weekend of June - nominally for the Queen's birthday).

I agree with Leigh that there is plenty of vk1 activity that could support field operators.

We should forget theories about "how propagation works" and just operate. The results could be surprising.

Re the rules, I wonder if Owen was thinking of the JMNFD rules, which are quite dated and complex. Will discuss offline.

[VK2KRR]

Woops, my apologies, I added some June dates into the vote poll but it seemed to have wiped out all the original votes. Lucky there was not lots. So need to vote again.

[VK2KRR]

I think the best idea would be to run the first winter field day to the existing rules and we can all make submissions for rule changes after its been run. This could apply to winter/summer & spring field days. I think for now let it go and see what happens is best for now.

[VK3KM]

I note Leigh's posting about the poll. Dates will need to finalised by this time next week if the details are to be published in the June issue of "AR". Most likely entrants are members of this forum and/or the vk-vhf reflector, but there are quite a few casual operators (especially home stations) that might not be members of either.
Votes I have received so far via the vk-vhf reflector or direct email:
July 12/13 - 5
July 26/27 - 1
Aug 2/3 - 0
Aug 9/10 - 0

John VK3KM

[VK2OMD]

I note Leigh's posting about the poll. Dates will need to finalised by this time next week if the details are to be published in the June issue of "AR". Most likely entrants are members of this forum and/or the vk-vhf reflector, but there are quite a few casual operators (especially home stations) that might not be members of either.
Votes I have received so far via the vk-vhf reflector or direct email:
July 12/13 - 5
July 26/27 - 1
Aug 2/3 - 0
Aug 9/10 - 0

John VK3KM

John, you don't mention dates earlier than July 12 above. Does that mean earlier dates are out of consideration?

Owen

[VK3KM]

Here is a summary of all the weekends of winter, hopefully with nothing missed this time.
The later the event is held, the more notice everyone gets. For that reason I think anything before late June could be a problem. So I think the first three possible dates shouldn't be considered.

June 7/8 - SERG Hamfest
June 14/15 - VK5 Mt Osmond Get Together
June 21/22 - Waverley ARC Annual Auction
June 28/29 - clear
July 5/6 - Gippstech
July 12/13 - clear
July 19/20 - GGREC Hamfest
July 26/27 - clear
Aug 2/3 - clear
Aug 9/10 - clear
Aug 16/17 - RD Contest and International Lighthouse Weekend
Aug 23/24 - clear
Aug 30/31 - Riverina Field Day

The most popular date from votes on vk-vhf so far is July 12/13 (5 votes as against 1 for July 26/27). But for all those who go to Gippstech and/or the GGREC hamfest, it could mean two or even three consecutive weekends of radio. Still, I assume everyone takes possible XYL concerns into account when voting!

Cheers, John VK3KM

[VK2KRR]

Personally I feel the July 12/13th date is too close to Gippstech, especially for those who would have had to travel from interstate or a reasonable distance.

[VK4GHZ]

A few of us have mentioned above, that outside of June (and mid June at that), there will be virtually zero 6M involvement/interest.
Having an extra band to play with (6M) makes it a bit more attractive when considering all the potential effort involved.

Non regular 6M operators may not appreciate the significance of this.

If you took away the stations that like to have a 6M component from the Summer fields days, then participation would be very low indeed.
I believe this effect will be magnified even more during the minor Winter Es season.

In my opinion, unless you are creating a 2M and above contest, where it won't matter much anyway, consideration outside of mid-June is simply suicide.
That means June 15 or June 22 are the only viable choices.
Again, take onboard the comments about a Saturday vs Sunday.

June 14/15 - VK5 Mt Osmond Get Together
June 21/22 - Waverley ARC Annual Auction

To be more specific:
Mt Osmond Get Together is Sunday June 15 lunchtime
Wavery Auction is Saturday June 21

With apologies to some VK5s, I doubt a local golf club luncheon is going to have much impact on a National contest.

Virtually everyone that would participate is a regular VK Logger user, on the VK-VHF mailing list, or both, or knows somebody who is.
Whether it makes it into the next issue of AR, or not, is somewhat academic.

It would be a pity to settle for a less than ideal weekend this year just so it can be promoted in "AR".
Contest details can also be spread via the weekly WIA broadcast, every week leading up to the chosen date.

It is critical to optimise the timing, especially for the first event.
Poor inaugural participation may be difficult to recover from in subsequent years.

[VK3KM]

Adam makes a good point. June 21 would be a good date considering propagation and weather factors, and it would allow about three weeks' notice in AR magazine. This could bring in some extra participants, especially some home stations and some F calls who aren't on this forum or on VHF-VHF. But by the time June AR comes out, most of the likely portable operators will already have had 3 weeks notice.

Another advantage of June 21 over June 28 is that it would be less likely to produce clashes for people who will be going to Gippstech, and especially for the people involved in organising Gippstech or making presentations there.

John VK3KM

[VK5BC]

A few of us have mentioned above, that outside of June (and mid June at that), there will be virtually zero 6M involvement/interest.
Having an extra band to play with (6M) makes it a bit more attractive when considering all the potential effort involved.

I agree with Adam that the date should be in June to give some hope of 6m openings. Last year most of the winter E 6m openings occurred in the 2nd half of June and I think we should be looking for a weekend that falls in that time frame with the idea date being 21/22 June. Unfortunately that clashes with Waverley Auction so I guess we would have to settle on the 14/15 or 28/29 June.

73 Brian
VK5BC