F-Call thoughts

[VK2MUS]

we don't need another license grade and if we add digital modes then there is no need to talk about increasing power levels (except in the case of UHF/VHF in rural areas) 10W in HF using digital will allow the operator to make contact worldwide and be competitive in competitions against both standard and advanced operators -

Basically I am talking about bringing the hobby into the 21st Century and to increase numbers in the hobby and if that means we need to change the Foundation syllabus then so be it. I suggested that the regs exame be included to over come Richards concern \.

When ever we talk about this it usually degrades into statements that suggest that upgrade will fix every thing and that's where it stops. Currently we have excellent opportunities to move the hobby away from the 1950's and into the 2000's with the review of the Legislation

[VK2AAH]

I think most people agree that changes could be made to the Foundation syllabus and license conditions. It comes down to striking a sensible balance...


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK1ZZ]

When I posted originally I was conscious of the many facets of amateur radio today. What I have read since has shown there are many fellow amateurs more than willing to speak up on ways to improve our numbers and harmony on air and for this I am grateful to all who have taken time to set out what i think are all very good and reasonable arguments for both sides of the coin, meaning look again at how the licence structure is set at now and what could be possible in the future.

I still believe allowing up to 100W along with an appropriate exam tailored to give the new licencee the technical knowledge to do so safely is still a viable alternative. I say this because I it is upsetting to many of us I think when we hear accusations flung out across the air and these do not contribute to our hobby. I would leave the decision on this to far better qualified members of our community and of course the ACMA to figure out a way forward.

I did not offer too much in the way of digital modes, and the reason being I don't use these modes and therefore I cannot offer any insight of use to others. I do however agree that to me it IS a very good idea which I simply think should be given careful consideration by those who have a much better understanding of these modes.

I believe increasing the number of active members of our community is a must for the future of our hobby, gee even I want somebody to chat with...

What better way to increase numbers than to put out the welcome mat to all? We need new people and we need them across the whole community, not just one or two modes or special interest groups, we should try to get more folks involved, the more the better.

To the home brewers I personally salute these folks. I have seen some amazing projects from these folks that were very, very impressive and I appreciate that a new licencee is unlikely to want to start off this way but once active in the hobby, they will learn what is out there and some I am sure will jump into the technical side of the hobby just as there are those who will prefer a more simpler style of operating. Remember when we decried the abolition of CW as a prerequisite to a licence?,( yeah I did, cause I struggled with CW, I felt it made me look dumb, ill I passed, then I was so clever...not) shock horror some said. the result was a swelling of numbers and now CW is coming back as a preferred mode for amateurs licensed since the abolition of the CW test.

The 7 letter call, I will leave that one alone...although I can't help myself, it makes my memory lapses waaay to common..nuff said

Keep it up folks, it's all good news...

Gary

[VK6DF]

My thought on the "F" call is that this is the entry level license to get on air. just a way to get your foot in the door and be bitten by the Ham bug and strive to learn more and upgrade.

once people start to play around and operate and get a feel for the bands and build antenna's and study books and get more involved with the hobby they will be wanting more, this is the time where they would/ should then upgrade.

some suggestions you have made seems like they may as well throw away the idea of the F call all together. you have to give them some limitations as they are beginners in the hobby.

look at a drivers license. you get your "p" plates, you have certain restrictions to adhere to. speed is limited, passengers are limited, times in which you can drive at night are limited. in some instances power of the vehicle is limited.

I believe the structure of the F call is good. i feel they should be limited to tx power, they should be limited to off the shelf radio's, they should be limited to bands and modes. if they want more then they need to study. put in the time and upgrade.
lots of operators have very successful QSO's operating QRP. 5w most of the time so its not impossible. it's not always the F call's fault either. i have heard many advance license holders who straight up ignore the F call or will tell them they are too low down simply because they think they are better then the F call. they shouldn't have to talk to "peasants". That is the kind of attitude that needs to change.

it should not be the problem of other operators to worry about if an F call is using 10w or 100w. Their license states Low power, they have done the training and KNOW they should be running 10w. if they choose to operate out of license spec, why is that the problem for other operators. Its like saying that an advance call has and Amp capable of 1kw but aus limit is 400w. do we automatically believe they are running it at full power or give them the benefit of the doubt that they are operating in accordance with their license?
it could be that the F call has a really good location, good antenna or propagation is more favourable for them. not that they are running 100w.

if an F call wants more, Upgrade. simple.

[VK2CSW]

It is my, not so humble, opinion that the Foundation Licence class is about right.

It is entry level.

It is a place to start the journey. It is not a destination.

The missing part of the equation is where Foundation operators are encouraged to upgrade, and let's face it - it isn't that big of a leap to Standard and Advanced under the current system.

A bit of study, a bit of cramming and a million practice exams using readily available Australian curriculum practice exam software and the exams are a walk in the park.

Maybe the only changes needed are incentives to try and upgrade? Off the top of my head (without any real in depth thought) how about making the exam fee valid for three or five attempts at the exam? Take away the one shot cost which I am sure dissuades people from trying.

[VK3MEG]

practice exams using readily available Australian curriculum practice exam software

would love to know where they are?

[VK2JDS]

I think Colin has hit the nail on the head here regarding the incentive to upgrade.
the costs are very high and having a waiver of this exhorbitant fee for 2 or 3 retries is a good idea.
i was really surprised just how much it costs to get a licence these days considering i was told the marine radio ops licence is free and its a bit like the f call. (I stand corrected on that one if its not completely free.)
My opinion is the F call test and licensing is correct, so lets make an easier upgrade path as the next step
73 Dave

[VK6DF]

Yep totally agree, its that step to get you in the door and yes there doesn't seem to be that push to upgrade after (other than self motivation).

maybe if they introduced a system where if you are already a current F call holder than the cost to upgrade is considerably cheaper or some kind of added bonus. maybe the "1 payment buys you 3 tries at the exam" or something. maybe not make it easier as in dumbing down the exam but just better options. make it more appealing to those who want to upgrade.

The idea is to help these people who have just entered into the hobby continue to learn and thrive and build their technical knowledge. the standard and advance license holders should be lending out their hand to help them along the way.

i must admit i was sceptical and the F call when first introduced, but then i also understood that in order to build the numbers in the hobby back up there had to be change and a lot of people were simply scared off by the exam arrangement and how it was more "expected" of you to be technically minded. where now there are classes and collages and plenty of learning platforms out there now willing to help those who might struggle and to also teach those who have no previous experience in anything electronic/communications/technical.

Change is inevitable (except from vending machines hihi) its just about making it the best we can for future generations. how many "old timers" voiced their opinions about dropping the Morse requirement?

i agree, change probably shouldn't happen at the F call level but the steps towards upgrading.

[VK2MUS]

Yep totally agree, its that step to get you in the door and yes there doesn't seem to be that push to upgrade after (other than self motivation).

.

Probably need to exit survey those that leave or who do not upgrade and find out why - the assumption is cost of exams however the truth may be different and revealing as I stated some time ago there were over 1500 australian licensed radio operators on Hamsphere and a large number of them were Foundation licenses - what do they find more appealing on Hamsphere then "real radio" Maybe we can learn from simply asking them why don't they use their real radios instead of the "simulated radio" Probably one answer would be that they do not get "dumped" on by the old guard on hamsphere

John

[VK4GHZ]

Ham radio *will* die unless newcomers are welcomed to the hobby, and it's a shame that many just don't seem to care.

Agreed.
These would be the old school hams... the ones who have resisted the interwebs and other changes in the last 20 odd years.

Most of this lot are extremely clever when it comes to RF and electronics, but are absolutely clueless on how to reach out and engage tech savvy younger folks who are online, and may be interested.

The old school interwebs phobia has made ham radio become "invisible" over the years, so it's no surprise there is very little new blood discovering ham radio.
It really is that simple.

It's important to understand this situation ham radio put itself in didn't suddenly happen last week, last month, or last year, but has been slowly happening over the last 20 years.
The world moved on, ham radio didn't.

And why, in 2015, do we still have email reflectors - closed groups you need to know about before you can even learn from them.
Again, this points to being hard to find and invisible... unless you already know about it.

... we are talking about getting more people into the hobby - thus making the entry more enticing to younger people the debate on upgrading is irrelevant...

John, exactly!
Sadly, most hams cannot see the bigger picture.
Upgrading privileges for any class of license is only treating one symptom of a much larger problem.

IMO, the WIA has ONE job to do: attract, engage, and make it easy for more people to sit the required tests so they can obtain a license.
Anything else is a distraction, and in 15-20 years time, it may not even matter if things don't change much.


If you have an open mind...

Umpteen of the local FPV (First person View) racing drone guys I fly with have expressed interest in becoming a licensed ham.
The #1 motivator here is being able to legally run more than 25mW EIRP with their 5.8 GHz FPV video downlinks.

In fact, there are almost 600 people in the FPV Australia Facebook group, 300 in the FPV QLD group, many of whom regularly yearn being able to run more than 25mW.
Many are already prepared to sit some appropriate test and pay a license fee.
This is not cold calling (like setting up an embarrassing ham radio caravan in a public location) - these guys are all warm prospects into the ham radio ranks.

FPV video downlinks wouldn't be the only use... thinking 2M FM handhelds for co-ordination around a group meet venue.

Most people playing with drones (a healthy spread from teenagers through to retired) are quite tech savvy:
They can solder and wire up electronics modules up (flight controllers, motor speed controllers, GPS modules, video cameras, etc), download and FLASH their FC and OSD modules via USB (firmware updates come out regularly, as it's constantly evolving), they update their various GUI apps, experiment with 1.2G, 2.4G and 5.8G RF for radio control and video down linking. They are using SMA connectors and RG316.

They are constantly striving for greater range and experiment with antennas and diversity receivers.
There's something oddly familiar about that, no?

How many hams have played with 5.8 GHz cloverleaf, crosshair, or CP helix antennas?
Not many?
100's of drone hobbyist in VK alone use them on a daily/weekly basis.

WIA decision makers - are you reading this?

I can tell the ham community right now:
If F-Calls had access to 5650-5850 MHz (as per advanced license allocation) and be allowed to run, say, 1W EIRP of video (call it ATV!) you would have 100's of new F-Calls in Australia.
Yes, there are that many drone enthusiasts out there now.
OSD (On screen display modules) can superimpose a callsign periodically to maintain ID requirements - this is easy, I do this with a $16.50 OSD module.

The microwave ham bands are grossly under utilised as it is.

Another thing to consider:
In the last few years over dozen online stores that sell drone parts in Australia alone have appeared.
Many of them have employed extra staff in the last 12 months and/or moved to larger premises to keep up with the growing demand.

And how many ham radio stores are left in Australia?


Another point of view is that of the ACMA's.
Their constant badgering about the 25mW limit is only driving FPVers underground.
(And most of them run 200 or 600mW TXs)

Wouldn't it make sense to allow a relatively easy means for FPV drone hobbyists to become legit?
Expecting a drone hobbyist to pass an advanced amateur level test is unreasonable for somebody who just want to use a 600mW video transmitter within a 400m radius.
The government also receives the $51 annual license fee into the coffers, instead of nothing.


If amateur radio wants a guaranteed influx of tech savvy people, change one thing:
Allow F-Calls access on 5.8 GHz, to run wide-band video transmissions, say, up to 1W EIRP.

Implement whatever changes are required to the syllabus and test to accommodate this, and both hobbies will be on a winner.

I wouldn't be surprised if some FPVers, once they have obtained a basic Foundation license, became further interested and explored other facets of ham radio.
The trick is to get them through the door in the first place, long before discussing upgrade incentives.


With all due respect, some of you blokes need to look at this from a totally fresh perspective, and from outside of ham radio altogether.
(Continued debate of 10W or 100W on HF is classic example of not thinking outside the box.)

The synergies of these two hobbies, one old, one new, should not be ignored.




ps
There are many hams playing with drones, as this 62 page thread "Are you a ham" reveals.

[VK4TI]

I'll say it again
All these wanted rights and usage require skills , and adding those skills make the fcall not an fcall as specified , after all it's a basic introduction to radio so why not just do the upgrade ?

it aint that hard requiring just some application and a little time .
B

[VK4TS]

There are two issues with the "F Call" -

It is supposedly an introduction to the hobby..

While experienced operators can use QRP to good effect to expect newcomers to be able to get good results is being ridiculous.

The reference should be normal power of a common rig or 100 watts - For Pete's sake these guys are coming from CB where they can run more power than an F Call....

To not have access to digital modes is very out of touch -

But are the exams out of touch ? Well consider that a Block Diagram of a Packet Modem is still in the Advanced syllabus - I would say very out of touch.....

and agreed they can upgrade - there is no denying that - BUT why are you going to upgrade or even renew if the introduction to the hobby is not an enjoyable one ?

[VK2MUS]

BUT why are you going to upgrade or even renew if the introduction to the hobby is not an enjoyable one ?

you sum it up beautifully

bit like here's the pencil mate if you do the upgrade you can have the lead. There is no argument that the Foundation grade is an entry grade and that it leads to upgrade to Standard or advanced but its not what the old guard says it is - in their view you would need to do the foundation exam in the morning and then upgrade in the afternoon and basically if you want to really experience ham radio that at the moment is what you have to do unless you are satisfied with 2m in the city. The foundation grade should be designed to allow the entry operator to experience what Ham Radio is and basically at present it does not - the city foundation operator can do what he can already do with a CB or when he travels with a HF land license at a lower cost then he can as a Ham radio operator.

Why is this the situation! because the foundation license was designed around the UK foundation license however the UK environment is totally different from the AUS environment - if you are a foundation operator in most rural areas then you either cannot use the 2m repeaters or you break the law and run higher power to use them - in the UK repeaters are within spitting distance in Australia they are not. So you can use your costly ham radio to converse with hams that may drive thro your town but then you can do this cheaper with the CB and there is most probably a CB repeater within earshot

This is not a debate about upgrading its about making the enter grade functional, a good teaching tool and most importantly a place where new entries can see if Ham Radio is for them before outlaying great heaps of money.

I don't think the current entry grade does any of that

John

[VK4CLG]

In my own personal opinion I still believe the F call should stay as it is. It's an entry level licence that any 8 year old kid can pass the exam and get on the air. The bottom line is that if we give F calls digital modes then what's next. We give them higher power levels and then they get the top end of the 6M band. Suddenly you got an entry level licence who has around 85% of the privilege's of a Standard licence holder.
If your going to start giving F calls all these extra privilege's then how about levelling out the playing field and giving the Standard call a bit more like ALL of the 6M band and maybe one extra microwave band like 10Ghz and that way your keeping the gap between the licence's to make an upgrade worth the effort.
Also has anyone stopped to think about how well a 4 letter call sign is going to work on digital modes. Most digital mode software is only setup to handle 6 character (VK4XXX) call signs and not 7 character VK4FXXX call signs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Robert
VK4LHD

[VK2MUS]

In my own personal opinion I still believe the F call should stay as it is. It's an entry level licence that any 8 year old kid can pass the exam and get on the air. The bottom line is that if we give F calls digital modes then what's next. We give them higher power levels and then they get the top end of the 6M band. Suddenly you got an entry level licence who has around 85% of the privilege's of a Standard licence holder.
If your going to start giving F calls all these extra privilege's then how about levelling out the playing field and giving the Standard call a bit more like ALL of the 6M band and maybe one extra microwave band like 10Ghz and that way your keeping the gap between the licence's to make an upgrade worth the effort.
Also has anyone stopped to think about how well a 4 letter call sign is going to work on digital modes. Most digital mode software is only setup to handle 6 character (VK4XXX) call signs and not 7 character VK4FXXX call signs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Robert
VK4LHD

yep they might just start taking over the world
Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world.

are you really serious or just having a Pinky and the Brain period!

[VK6DF]

I love the idea of opening up the microwave bands though. to think there is potential to expand the hobby through another hobby is great. most of the drone folks are looking for better ways to increase video coverage, ham radio has that capability to supply such a thing.

I think its a great Suggestion VK4TS.

[VK1ZZ]

Are there not other prefixes we could use?

VL, VM, VN and VZ I think might still be allocated to ACMA. They were granted in 1947 by the ITU.

If we changed all foundation liceces to another prefix, add an additional study element to their exam to allow them to upgrade to say digital and 50-100w and give them a 2 by 3 call...Like VM4DXX

Somebody suggested Standard have all of 6M. I have no idea why that can't be done, other than a turf war...

Just thinkin, please be kind...

Gary

[VK4WDM]

WIA decision makers - are you reading this?

I think that we need to remember that it is NOT the WIA that makes the decisions about changing license conditions it is the ACMA and they are the ones that need to be reading this (and probably are).

Given the ACMA's concern about EMR, I really don't think they would agree to increasing the FL power limit even if the proposal to do so was proposed by the WIA. Someone suggested adding a regs section to the exam but that is getting away from the purpose of an entry level.

I don't use the microwave bands, but I would suggest that the the power limits allocated to drone operation might be there for a very valid reason and circumnavigating those limits by attaching oneself to a different hobby might not be viewed kindly by the ACMA either.

I do support addition of digital modes to the FL but it would need an addition to the syllabus. Why deprive them of the best means of QRP communication, and the opportunity of using their computing interest and skills to compliment their ham radio experience?

FL call sign. I think other options were explored before its introduction but no option other that the present format could be found.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2MUS]

add an additional study element to their exam to allow them to upgrade to say digital
Gary

good idea however why should a foundation operator have to sit an exam for digital modes when no other grade has to - where in the standard or advanced exams are they questions on digital modes.

Pose some example questions that would be included on digital mode operations-

how do you connect the computer to the radio
what software do you use to generate digital modes
how do you adjust the computer sound card and the radio's output to lessen ALC

a large proportion of Advanced operators would fail these questions

[VK3RX]

You can't seem to post anything without including barbs against advanced licensees, old guard etc.

Those barbs detract from anything else you say, and probably lead some to ignoring them -