Where are you???

[VK3ALB]

How would this work?

Imagine if all ops and teams in an event like the JMMFD could send their callsign and grid reference to 6 or 8 decimal places to a location where a KML file can be compiled in realtime? The KML is dynamic and old entries are removed within 48 hours of placement. This means that when you're out on site you can use that KML to see in almost real time who is out there. You might be surprised to find someone on the next hill along.

You could call it contestradar48.com or something equally as nerdy.

Yep I can see the downsides;

Who is going to do the work?
It's already on the clusters (kinda)
It's already on the logger (kinda)
Getting the correct information
Getting everyone to submit the correct information
Getting internet access at your FD site
Small market/user base

"IF" you could get around those things does the concept have merit?

[VK2ZRH]

Indubitably!

I'm only writing this extra paragraph to get around the nerdy limation of having too few characters, which denies a posting.

[VK3MIX]

I'm sure a KML file could be generated from the VKLogger data if the webmaster is up to it. Doesn't have to be contest related.

[VK3ALB]

I'm sure a KML file could be generated from the VKLogger data if the webmaster is up to it. Doesn't have to be contest related.

Understood but that doesn't give you an indication of who is really out there on contest day.

Some of the data in the logger db has not been touched for years. VK4ADC runs a checklist from the logger data but from recollection it's a manual task. Our group researches the possible contacts through phone calls and emails in the week preceding the contest - again a manual task.

My idea was something more dynamic and automated where all you had to do was send an extract from your logging program (say VKCL) into the cloud and the input be processed into a KML. I imagined a living KML that is empty on the Thursday before the contest and empty on Monday. It grows and fills as more operators settle in for the contest and hit the "here I am" button on their logging program or desktop.

I can't cut code to save my life but I reckon it's something that is achievable.

[VK3BQ]

Isn't that what aprs can do?? Lots of packet cover Australia wide. ? Or a spot GPS tracker ? http://positlogger.net


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[VK4ADC]

VK4ADC runs a checklist from the logger data but from recollection it's a manual task. Our group researches the possible contacts through phone calls and emails in the week preceding the contest - again a manual task.

And I still do it. I took a snapshot of the Op Info data on Friday night using my /P profile,(Ctrl-A, then Ctrl-C) pasted into a text file called vklogger.txt (Ctrl-V) and then ran my software during the JMFD. The latest version executable is not yet on the web site and was updated because of formatting in the data capture (an extra tab was inserted in the OpInfo screen layout sometime since my last data capture) but I will update it on my web site later today. It gives distance and bearing for any valid user record from your capture QTH, very handy at microwave. { POST NOTE : Now updated http://www.vk4adc.com/web/index.php/sof ... o-software }

The only reason the process has to be done manually is because you have to be logged in ( e.g. using your /P profile) to be able to access the Op Info screens else I would do it by a web page capture and data extract.

I almost never have internet access during FDs. To get some, I have to plug in a dongle and re-activate my broadband data account with some $$$ just for the event. Not worth it for 6-8 hours, and that assumes you have the time to keep checking the screen to see who is around. I have no other need for mobile data so the remainder of the 750MB minimum would remain unused.

That being said, even if the KML idea did get off the ground, it won't be showing me as I wouldn't be updating it while on site (see previous para re internet access).

Finally, it would probably make the contest organisers wary if you could simply retrieve the grid square of that hard-to-work station from the Google app. Maybe not in the spirit of the contest??

[VK3ALB]

Isn't that what aprs can do?? Lots of packet cover Australia wide. ? Or a spot GPS tracker ? http://positlogger.net


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Maybe, but not everyone has a APRS thingo with them. I'd say the number of paper loggers out there would be reducing and the number of PC's out there would be increasing. In my mind all that is required from the operator is, a callsign, location details and the internet. I understand that brings it's own complexities but I reckon it would be easier to implement than asking folks to get an APRS thingo.

I almost never have internet access during FDs. To get some, I have to plug in a dongle and re-activate my broadband data account with some $$$ just for the event. Not worth it for 6-8 hours, and that assumes you have the time to keep checking the screen to see who is around. I have no other need for mobile data so the remainder of the 750MB minimum would remain unused.

That being said, even if the KML idea did get off the ground, it won't be showing me as I wouldn't be updating it while on site (see previous para re internet access).

Finally, it would probably make the contest organisers wary if you could simply retrieve the grid square of that hard-to-work station from the Google app. Maybe not in the spirit of the contest??

Yes understood Doug. I didn't intend that you would continuously refresh your location to say that you were there. Consider if you pressed the "I'm here" button on Friday night or even Saturday morning of the contest. At least we would know that you intended to go out somewhere within 12 to 24 hours of the start of the contest. That's the point of the 48 hour timeout for entries. In fact a simpler way would be to wipe the KML at the end of the contest. If you planned to head out on Saturday arvo for a few hours you could send out your notification that morning, download your new KML and away you go. Those with live internet connections would see that you were out there.

As for fishing locators out of the system well I suppose that could happen but unless there's a valid contact in each log (times, serial numbers etc) then the amount of benefit gained from doing that would be marginal.

We're becoming more connected, the time will come where we are always online. This will be possible in some way.

My idea might not be perfect but perhaps someone out there might just see the seed for something better in all of this.

[VK2JDH]

Maybe, but not everyone has a APRS thingo with them. I'd say the number of paper loggers out there would be reducing and the number of PC's out there would be increasing. In my mind all that is required from the operator is, a callsign, location details and the internet. I understand that brings it's own complexities but I reckon it would be easier to implement than asking folks to get an APRS thingo.

You can get a APRS app for most smart phones. You can put a message in indicating frequency etc.

I actually think APRS via RF and or internet/phones would be the best solution and all the infrastructure is already there.

[VK3MIX]

Understood but that doesn't give you an indication of who is really out there on contest day.

Some of the data in the logger db has not been touched for years. VK4ADC runs a checklist from the logger data but from recollection it's a manual task. Our group researches the possible contacts through phone calls and emails in the week preceding the contest - again a manual task.

I was thinking the query to generate the data could be limited to by the "last update" field (should/hopefully exist) which could limit this to the last 48/72 hours.

[ADMIN]

The VK Logger Mapping functionality already exists to show /P stations.
Obviously, once you have a /P profile and have updated it (even a no-change update), it doesn't matter if you're offline during the actual activity... others can still see your /P location, and use that data.

Obviously, you can click on the markers, and determine distance, bearing, as well display a basic terrain profile.
Blah blah blah, it's all been discussed before.


It would be very easy to have another portable device friendly version of this mapping functionality to display /P stations only.

Given the existing functionality has generally not been embraced, (or rather the benefits of creating/updating a /P profile), one might conclude it could be a waste of time developing a dedicated page to display "where are you".

Open to suggestions though, in the hope that horses do get thirsty every now and then.

[VK3ALB]

I was thinking the query to generate the data could be limited to by the "last update" field (should/hopefully exist) which could limit this to the last 48/72 hours.

Yes Andrew, you'd think that would be the best way but as Adam explained that didn't work very well. I agree that it would be a great asset but it just didn't happen. In my mind the only other thing thought would be great is to know that those markers are there on the map because someone did something about their profile somewhere in the 24 to 48 hour before the beginning of the contest. At least they intended to be out that weekend.

Take a look at the OpInfo list for /P operators - there's a fair few ready for deletion

So my thinking was that everyone probably takes the time to set up their contest log and get the details right in there so why not leverage off that activity. Maybe I'm wrong and folks just turn up on the day and start operating?

Andrew & Dave mentioned APRS which of course works but how do you differentiate between the contestants and those that just happen to have APRS running at their location but aren't interested in the contest?

The idea is to capture only those operators that really do intend to be out on the weekend.

[VK3MIX]

Maybe I can whip something simple up for you Lou that takes callsign, grid square and maybe a comment. No login system, just a straight form with a download button which generates a KML with any entries from the last 48/72 hours. We can see how it goes from there.

[VK3ALB]

Hi Everyone,

A couple of weeks after my original post, Andrew VK3MIX sent me a link to his first cut of something we now called Contest Radar. After bouncing the idea around for some time we think it's ready for testing by the amateur community. We are very pleased that Mike VK3AVV agreed to integrate VKCL into the site and you now have a really simple way to announce your presence in the field whenever you go out to play radio.

Contest Radar has a 72 hour rolling window that shows place pins on a Google Maps or Google Earth. It shows you quite quickly who is out there on field day. Did you work everyone? Is there anyone nearby? Every pin you see on the map is there because someone made a conscious effort to announce their intention to go out in the field.

You can use Contest Radar from your PC, laptop, mobile device or pretty much anything that is connected to the internet. No special software required although as I said earlier can be used in conjunction with VKCL from Version 3.12.

Contest Radar is meant to be a fast and easy solution to letting people know where you are. The amount of effort required to announce your presence has been reduced to a bare minimum.

Some folks have asked why not use APRS, well you need to set that up, not everyone has it etc, etc, etc

Adam has already pointed out that the majority of this is already available in the VKlogger mapping service. You can also get similar information from VKlogger Op Info. The problem is that not many people seem to use it or if they do, they don't keep their details update or even check their details are correct. Why? I don't know, it doesn't seem that difficult.

However, Contest Radar differs in one particular way because the information it gives you can be nearly live. Are you a rover and move locations often? Get on your mobile device and update your location as soon as you arrive. If you're using VKCL you can update your location as part of the normal configuration process you already know. It only takes one extra mouse click.

I know, not everyone has internet in the field but that doesn't mean you can't spend 30 seconds on the night before field day adding your location to the map. Even if you can't see the map others will know you're out there and maybe they'll find you and give you a few extra contacts. Isn't that why we go out in the field?

We'd be really pleased to hear your constructive thoughts and comments on Contest Radar. It's not a fix all for field day but we do believe if used effectively can contribute to your enjoyment of field day weekend.

My thanks to Andrew and Mike for believing in the concept and spending the time to develop Contest Radar into the what I think is a very useful tool.

Please give it a try right now and think about how you can best use Contest Radar on your next field day outing.

[VK5PL]

I don't really understand how this will benefit a portable operator who may or may not have internet access while they are out on a field day site .
Just knowing someone is at a particular location does not guarantee that you will be able to make contact with them.
I thought one of the ideas of being out on a field day is to prepare & train yourself for emergency situations. In a situation like that, there is probably not going to be any internet connection.
There are many SOTA & other portable activations that are notified on parks & peaks or other internet sites, but that does not mean everyone will be able to work them, that depends on the radio conditions at the time.
I can't afford internet access away from home so have to rely on tuning the bands & finding the stations that I can hear or can hear me.

[VK4EA]

With a beam width of 3 degrees from most of my dish, knowing where to point is a massive advantage

Sent from my SM-T805 using Tapatalk

[VK4WDM]

Just knowing exactly where I am at ANY time would be an advantage, not just on FD

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4TI]

"VK4WDM"Just knowing exactly where I am at ANY time would be an advantage, not just on FD

Wayne VK4WDM""

Like my self I am sure you cant get lost Wayne , certainly I am being told often where to go "_)

[VK3QI]

Lou and Andrew,

The Contest Radar first cut looks good but really lacks precision, as it gives the 6 figure locator to the centre of the square only.

Is it possible to extend it through to 10 figure accuracy, which would put the location within about 10 metres?

For example, my current grid square is QF22MD95FD which is roughly the size of a 1/4 acre house block.

Whereas, the 6 figure comes in around the 8 -10 kms mark.

What say?

Peter VK3QI

[VK3ALB]

Hi Peter,

Whilst I understand your request, the point of Contest Radar is not meant to be a full featured product just a simple way to announce your presence and see who else is out there.

I think all of us have been out at one stage or another and wondered if we've worked everyone that's out that day. I know that post contest there's always a bit of comparing notes e.g. "Did you work station x, y, z?" only to find you may have missed one or more stations. Hopefully Contest Radar will help minimise that because you can just look at the map and see if you've worked everyone.

As for precision, I think you'll agree that the more distant the station the less resolution (within reason) you need to hit your target. If I'm in the sub square below you then it makes sense to know if you're pointing SW, S or SE but I'm so close to you that we'll probably hear each other anyway and we'll work out the bearing. If I'm looking for VK2KRR then QF43MR is good enough, I don't need to know his extended square number, I've already got his direction well enough to point my antennas.

I know I haven't really answered your question but I hope you can see the thinking that went into the design and the choices we made and balance it against the ease of use of Contest Radar.

[VK3QI]

No worries Lou,

When you or I are "out" in the field, we are sufficiently far enough away from (say) Melbourne, that 6 figure accuracy is good enough, even for 10 or 24 Ghz.

However, I have noticed that around Melbourne, quite a few operators have difficulty in knowing the bearings for close by stations that may be shielded by various buildings, hills etc.

Typically 6 figure will give on average, about 4 kms accuracy and 8 figure will give about 1kms accuracy.

If you look at the current 7 day map, the 3XPD beacon is shown 3.5 kms east of where it actually is and my qth is labelled 3 kms west of where it really is.

So someone in the southern suburbs (say Mentone) is going to out by about 20 degrees from a distance of about 18 kms which could be significant on the microwave bands.

Overall, the Contest Radar is a great idea and I am sure we will use it effectively in the forthcoming Field Days.

CU next weekend from somewhere.

Cheers

Peter VK3QI