2m digital EME and VK power permits?

[VK3DXE]

What was the minimum height you came up with Pete?

[VK4TI]

In which case tonight after my sked with W5UN will be the last night of EME operation here after which I will disassemble the antenna.

I might go trespassing on private property sometime and see if the 'But ACMA says your garden is a public place!' statement will hold up in court? It either is a public space or it isn't. You can't have legal entities with different interpretations.

Who even comes up with this stuff?! Another case of people educated beyond their level of intelligence!

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

A call to your solicitor would confirm but the advice I have is public access past your front door is restricted , your rear fence being of good height may be considered a fair and reasonable restriction to access , I have a similar height fence and was successful ( larger yard though) , I can't see any public servant suggesting you failed to make fair restrictions even in your little rear yard . More height even if wind up would be sensible or course and with a cctv cam aiming far easier , good luck

Barry

[VK2OMD]

IMHO, the relevant LCD is not sufficiently clear about the meaning of some terms used and that is just one of the factors that contributed to the recent high power trial failing.

The relevant LCD is in the remaking process at this time, and whilst the language used by ACMA inviting comment hints that they think it is quite good enough as it is, it is open for comment and now is the best time to obtain clarification in the published Apparatus Licence LCD.

The matter of accessibility is critically important to interpretation of the LCD... does it mean you can touch something, does insulation matter, is it access even if without permission to a space that has unsafe EMR levels at some time, what sort of physical structures or measures might be adequate ot prevent access. What constitues the public... does it include your family and visitors (authorised or not, accompanied or not). Is signage a means of hazard control? Are there measures by which you can supervise no access?

Think about construction sites, they need to prevent access by members of the public to hazardous zones. If they barricade a trench off, that is sufficient protection even though a member of the public might easily pass over the barricade.

All of this EMR safety stuff is about risk management, and MANAGING the risk of exposure to RF that MIGHT have harmful outcome. You wouldn't know that from reading the LCD, it is prescriptive without clarity, and doesn't convey a concept of measures that might in combination reasonably make the risk of exposure to unsafe RF a very unlikely event.

If we cannot embrace this and deal with it in a rational manner, we risk imposition of more restrictive rules (including lower power limits) over time.

Owen

[VK2FAK]

Hi all....


A perfect example of what a Gov't can do regarding your backyard is to look at the rules for a backyard swimming pool, a fence is required regardless of whether you have children or not....you have to protect against someone else's child coming into your yard...


These couple of threads started out as "feel good" stories and have become depressing..

John

[VK3BQ]

how did last nights efforts with the US go? did you manage that contact rob!

[VK2GOM]

W5UN's antenna array has broken down - it wouldn't turn. He emailed me to say so a few minutes before midnight when he found out. We are going to try again some other time... perhaps.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2GOM]

Hi all....


A perfect example of what a Gov't can do regarding your backyard is to look at the rules for a backyard swimming pool, a fence is required regardless of whether you have children or not....you have to protect against someone else's child coming into your yard...


These couple of threads started out as "feel good" stories and have become depressing..

John

Quote for the day:

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”

- Adolf Hitler

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2OMD]

It is a lot easier to conduct an anti-government rant here than to get the LCD, read it and identify issues of clarity etc, and make a submission to the ACMA during the comment period for the remaking of the Apparatus Licence LCD.

A lot easier, but ranting here will not change things.

Owen

[ZL3PX]

Oh Boy you Aussies sure get wound-up thought Amateur radio was an enjoyable hobby what are you turning it into??? NZART and the RSM in ZL have a great relationship 1500w etc

[VK2GOM]

I'd hardly call posting an historic quote a 'rant'?

As far as this LCD goes, I think they could learn a thing or two by following the format of the UK's 'Licensing Conditions' booklet. Far, far easier and simpler to digest and understand, written in plain language, and you don't need to be a lawyer to understand it.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2FAK]

Hi all...

Owen. nobody is bashing the Gov't....just making comments about what can and can't be done and whether the rules are realistic or not......if everyone hides and makes comments behind closed door, you sure are right, nothing will ever change..

John

[VK3DXE]

IMHO, the relevant LCD is not sufficiently clear about the meaning of some terms used and that is just one of the factors that contributed to the recent high power trial failing.

The relevant LCD is in the remaking process at this time, and whilst the language used by ACMA inviting comment hints that they think it is quite good enough as it is, it is open for comment and now is the best time to obtain clarification in the published Apparatus Licence LCD.

The matter of accessibility is critically important to interpretation of the LCD... does it mean you can touch something, does insulation matter, is it access even if without permission to a space that has unsafe EMR levels at some time, what sort of physical structures or measures might be adequate ot prevent access. What constitues the public... does it include your family and visitors (authorised or not, accompanied or not). Is signage a means of hazard control? Are there measures by which you can supervise no access?

Think about construction sites, they need to prevent access by members of the public to hazardous zones. If they barricade a trench off, that is sufficient protection even though a member of the public might easily pass over the barricade.

All of this EMR safety stuff is about risk management, and MANAGING the risk of exposure to RF that MIGHT have harmful outcome. You wouldn't know that from reading the LCD, it is prescriptive without clarity, and doesn't convey a concept of measures that might in combination reasonably make the risk of exposure to unsafe RF a very unlikely event.

If we cannot embrace this and deal with it in a rational manner, we risk imposition of more restrictive rules (including lower power limits) over time.

Owen

Pretty much what I started writing last night Owen.

Two things I'll add to your comments:

When people don't properly understand rules/laws/regulations, they tend to apply the most literal interpretations to them. Anybody ever dealt with really stupid security guards or overly officious idiots in the workplace?

Australia appears to have become obscenely risk-averse, almost to the point where you can almost imagine people doing risk assessments before they eat their bloody dinner for fear of choking on it

[VK3ZGC]

FWIW

"PUBLIC" in the eyes of the ACMA refers to anyone that is not RF trained. eg Family members, friends, visitors, neighbors, trespassers etc.

We are deemed to be RF Trained by virtue of holding an appropriate radio license.

Gary

[VK4TI]

FWIW

"PUBLIC" in the eyes of the ACMA refers to anyone that is not RF trained. eg Family members, friends, visitors, neighbors, trespassers etc.

We are deemed to be RF Trained by virtue of holding an appropriate radio license.

Gary

I should think "public" is by definition one specified legally hence my suggestion to consult , a department official making an opinion may not be be binding . Right now I will stick with the definition given by our family retainer until reliably informed otherwise simply to avoid confusion.

[VK2AAH]

The definition of "Public" is defined in the document.


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4TI]

The definition of "Public" is defined in the document.


Richard
VK2AAH

That's "a" definition , not necessarily the applicable legal definition and the reason to consult richard

[VK2AAH]

It is legally enforceable when it is defined in the document... that is why such documents include a list of definitions. Clearly most words have more than one strict meaning in common usage- hence it is defined to prevent such bush lawyer debates.

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2HRX]

It is legally enforceable when it is defined in the document... that is why such documents include a list of definitions. Clearly most words have more than one strict meaning in common usage- hence it is defined to prevent such bush lawyer debates.

Richard
VK2AAH

Says the bush lawyer..
So Richard, are you able to cite when this has been tested in court so that our judicial system has confirmed that ACMA's regulation making is enforcable?

[VK2AAH]

Compton the fact that it hasn't been tested in court by carriers with teams of lawyers on retainer suggest that the definition has been accepted. Of course the rest of the communications industry are idiots and we amateurs are far smarter.... of course we are...


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3ZAZ]

If you think its all a bit of a storm in a tea cup like some have told me they do don't read on...



The proposed changes appear to mainly bring the Apparatus Licence LCD in line with changes in the Australian Human Exposure Standard to RF emissions and other, more recent, instruments.

The consultation package for this remake is available on the ACMA website via the following Link

Additionally, in May this year, the WIA made a submission to the “Remaking of the Human Exposure Standard”, highlighting that, in the ITU definition of the Amateur service, amateur radio is an experimental personal pursuit and the WIA does not wish to see radiocommunications legislation or regulation unnecessarily restrict or otherwise trammel the individual or collective interests and activities of radio amateurs. That WIA submission, together with an outcome of the consultation process, can be viewed at the following Link

Is the WIA going down the line that we should be excluded ..from what is obviously a public safety issue like it or no, I didn't ask them to do that for me did you?

I can but imagine how we can expect be exempted from compliance with the prposed new emr rules when everyone else has to comply.

Pursue this line at your peril, everyone else broadcasters, mobile phone carriers, even the humble police station require site radiation folders and EMR audits.



And anyone entering a broadcast site has to sight and sign the SRF acknowledging the hazards of RF radiation.

Radio waves don't stop at fence lines or at roof top levels..and are no less hazardous from ham radio than commercial radio.

And as we all found out with the flawed calculations for the HF High Power trial we can get it wrong and some smart lawyer would have no problem at all should a case ever come to court in shotting your calculations down in flames.



Even the STOP SMART METER people have managed by agitation to get a review of the standards.

I for one am not renewing my high power permit.

And correct me if I am not mistaken but wasn't the claim of the Data modes being developed that EME could be done with 100 watts and a single yagi..

I would have thought doing it with 10w would be far more of an achievement that a kilowatt.