Are hams allowed to repair or modify mains-powered equipment

[VK2GOM]

Hands up who remembers TV's with live chassis? They would certainly fool a few so-called edumacated techs today (if the TV's were still working!)

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3ZAZ]

Who can forget es the use of isolation t/f

But why do you think its over rover?

Every NEC power supply the guys are playing with out of ATV transmitters is s/w mode and hot inside as is every PC power supply and every 50V server supply they are using to power their larcans, and Yaesu black boxes etc etc etc.
and from what I hear of the poor girl who got fried using her mobile phone with a plug pack connected so are they...

I am 67 last electric shock was as an apprentice in 1962.

As far as what hams are allowed to do they seem to do whatever they bloody well like.

[VK5TM]

Ian

Now looking for a 1:1 240v isolating transformer...

I think Aztronics in town has or had them. Other option may to run 2 transformers back to back.

Last electric shock? Couple of weeks ago, repairing, of all things, a SAFETY TESTER.

[VK4WDM]

Nothing gets powered up on my work bench without a careful examination of the circuit and the inside of the set for obvious dangers. I learned that the hard way many years ago when a rushed home from an auction with a piece of old treasure and I just had to see if it worked. A few seconds after switch-on there was a large a horrible burning smell and lots of smoke then a large bang, closely followed by numerous earwigs fleeing the scene. The set had obviously been lying in a shed and hundreds of the insects had taken up residence and their frying bodies had shorted out some components. I could not get rid of the mess and the set never worked again.

Vintage equipment can have hidden dangers. Some of the old transmitters have variable caps that are "floating" above earth with live shafts so you can get a nasty belt from a protruding grub screw. Bleed resistors may not be fitted to HV power supplies so the unit remains dangerous even when switched off. Some of the conversions for ham use are very dodgy and need to be tidied up or removed completely. Obviously you work on an un-powered unit for as long as possible but there comes a time when you have to power it up to check voltages, do a "smoke test" etc. I never do that alone and the old "one hand in pocket" rule applies.

This discussion has prompted me to think whether it is wise for a nearly 70 yr old with less than perfect eyesight, arthritic fingers, and electro-cardiac problems to continue to work on high voltage equipment - maybe not, one has to be realistic!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK5ZD]

Hands up who remembers TV's with live chassis?

We used to have one in the UK in the early 60s (B&W 405 line). From my vague memory of it (I was around 10 years old at the time), there was no exposed metal anywhere, so no chance of a 'zap' from normal use. Repairs would be a different story. I can remember my father (an electronics engineer for Marconi at that time) doing repairs on it whenever it failed. I also believe the valves heaters all ran using a fixed current (300mA ??) rather than a fixed voltage. The heaters were all wired in series and ran from the mains through a resistor. Must have been annoying when one failed as they'ed all go out

[VK3ZFS]

I understand any device not connected to fixed electrical wiring, eg via plug, competent person can work on it, some places have electrical safty testing & taging is about it.

[VK3ZAZ]

I understand any device not connected to fixed electrical wiring, eg via plug, competent person can work on it, some places have electrical safty testing & taging is about it.

The issue here is the point of isolation.

Remember Ross Hull?
He was a radio tech like me and he died unlike me.
1969-2014 nil electric shock. nil nowt none.
I am a Broadcast tech cert number V9
We have a rule
two to open
No iffs no buts
You go on one of our sites and work alone
That's the last time you go on one of our sites
We work on stuff up to 50KW and solid state 90V 1000 amps
Two techs
Two points of isolation.
As for Broadcast techs working on 415 V mains powered transmitters
we have slipped through the cracks we dont even need a connect disconnect licence.
But we are a dying breed they don't issue BOCPs any more or TVOCPs of First Class commercial ops or marine either.
As for you bods working on the ex ATV power supplies they can kill you stone dead even 50V
And the U tube video with larcan amps running with lids off??? NUTS.
Hows your cataracts?



VK4WDM Im 3 years behind you so stay safe..

[VK2FABS]

You might find it in the manual but it sure isn't in the act.....

Good question and being a new F call holder, you made me look.

In LCD Amendment 2012 (updated 2013), Section 26, Part 6, 28

Transmitting equipment restrictions: The licensee must not operate an amateur foundation using a transmitter that has not been manufactured commercially.

In the Foundation License Manual 2nd Ed published by WIA, p61

Type of Equipment: Foundation licensees must use commercially manufactured transmitting equipment. A foundation licensee is not allowed to modify their transmitter. Antenna construction and experimentation is permitted.

I'd agree with VK4TS and VK3ALB's observations that there's some stretching of the act in the WIA manual, and even more stretched in the Foundation class where students were left under the impression that one can't open the case nor make any repairs e.g. Fuse replacement as an example. If the act, and even the WIA manual text is objectively interpreted, there's room to define what "manufactured" means. Where does a kit radio sit, one that only requires plugging in a few connector sockets and turn a few screws and nuts? How is that different to a fully assembled radio and plugging in external cables and screws? No soldering nor alterations to the original commercially manufactured specifications in either case. Whilst I can understand the objective of the act is to prevent licensees from constructing and altering transmitters that may cause interferences amongst others, the WIA manual and instructors clearly have erred on the safe side to avoid all possible events. A practical implementation of the act. Given how the Foundation course and exam drummed the importance of always go to the LCD for all regulatory questions and not depend on the manual, I'd say the diligent F licensees may have been given some leeway.

I can see how the lawyers would tackle this issue along with the questions being asked. Easily $10k out the window!

[VK2AVR]

And the U tube video with larcan amps running with lids off??? NUTS.

Seen a few recently with russians playing with microwave magnetrons and using them to blow stuff up and set fire to potatoes. Even touching the live element with their finger (!!!). It was so cringeworthy to watch I don't even want to post a link.

I'd agree with VK4TS and VK3ALB's observations that there's some stretching of the act in the WIA manual, and even more stretched in the Foundation class where students were left under the impression that one can't open the case nor make any repairs e.g. Fuse replacement as an example. If the act, and even the WIA manual text is objectively interpreted, there's room to define what "manufactured" means. Where does a kit radio sit, one that only requires plugging in a few connector sockets and turn a few screws and nuts? How is that different to a fully assembled radio and plugging in external cables and screws? No soldering nor alterations to the original commercially manufactured specifications in either case. Whilst I can understand the objective of the act is to prevent licensees from constructing and altering transmitters that may cause interferences amongst others, the WIA manual and instructors clearly have erred on the safe side to avoid all possible events. A practical implementation of the act. Given how the Foundation course and exam drummed the importance of always go to the LCD for all regulatory questions and not depend on the manual, I'd say the diligent F licensees may have been given some leeway.

I can see how the lawyers would tackle this issue along with the questions being asked. Easily $10k out the window!

Well, common sense applies that "manufactured" means produced by a company that has repeatability of manufacture and test reports to prove that their device always conforms to the rules. As soon as you a) homebrew or b) start building kits then all bets are off. "Yes but kits contain instructions" - people are lousy at following instructions. People make mistakes. Especially ones that are building something for the first time. Once you get to the point of plugging a couple of modules together and putting the case on.. well it's pretty difficult to stuff that up and you are getting into a grey area.

I would caution anyone seeking clarification to remember that grey areas allow for wiggle room and benefit of the doubt. If you want it spelled out in black and white, it will be, but you will NOT like what it says because it's easier for governing bodies to just say no. Then they cover their own butt.

Honestly though, if you want to home brew stuff, there is NOTHING in the standard licence that is daunting. It covers basic electronics and a little bit of RF. The kind of stuff that should be common sense for anyone wanting to build their own radios. So just play it safe, the F call is an introduction to the hobby. If it seems interesting, upgrade!

[VK2FABS]

Well, common sense applies that "manufactured" means produced by a company that has repeatability of manufacture and test reports to prove that their device always conforms to the rules. As soon as you a) homebrew or b) start building kits then all bets are off. "Yes but kits contain instructions" - people are lousy at following instructions. People make mistakes. Especially ones that are building something for the first time. Once you get to the point of plugging a couple of modules together and putting the case on.. well it's pretty difficult to stuff that up and you are getting into a grey area.

I would caution anyone seeking clarification to remember that grey areas allow for wiggle room and benefit of the doubt. If you want it spelled out in black and white, it will be, but you will NOT like what it says because it's easier for governing bodies to just say no. Then they cover their own butt.

Honestly though, if you want to home brew stuff, there is NOTHING in the standard licence that is daunting. It covers basic electronics and a little bit of RF. The kind of stuff that should be common sense for anyone wanting to build their own radios. So just play it safe, the F call is an introduction to the hobby. If it seems interesting, upgrade!

I agree with you. It's really a common sense issue. But of course, my earlier discussion was purely from a legal angle, one that falls back to the wording of the Act, one that a court would invariably have to take consideration of. In terms of regulatory powers, my understanding is that WIA is the middleman while ACMA is the one that holds the legal power. Yes, some grey space is useful.

On the issue of homebrew and whilst I was in the foundation course, I realised that by picking up this license, I am precluding myself (legally) to even make an educational radio kit. Whilst I was in Jaycar the other day (1st visit for years), I note that they are still selling those little electronic kits, like DS used to do years ago. Amongst them was a simple radio kit. Now with a F license, I am no longer allowed to make and play with it. I have no concern about being able to go through all the Standard call material, but time, with family and work responsibilities. I note that a Standard course will consume an evening a week for a rather extended period, not something I can vacate at this point in time. Will look at the option of the online course, but that's without direct face to face interactions. Maybe I should just reset my expectation on the course and aim for a 70% pass mark than trying to truly understand everything during the studies. LOL

[VK2OMD]

...
On the issue of homebrew and whilst I was in the foundation course, I realised that by picking up this license, I am precluding myself (legally) to even make an educational radio kit.

This is nonsense.

Your licence restricts your licensed transmitter to some extent, it does not prevent you making kits etc in general, and you can still build a transmitter, you are not allowed to use it under that licence.

Lots of Foundation licencees come up with really silly interpretations of the LCD to suit their own purposes, spending time grizzling about what they can't do than what they can.

Owen

[VK2FABS]

This is nonsense.
Your licence restricts your licensed transmitter to some extent, it does not prevent you making kits etc in general, and you can still build a transmitter, you are not allowed to use it under that licence.

Well, I know it's nonsense if some common sense is applied. But, the LCD does say "The licensee must not operate an amateur foundation station using a transmitter that has not been manufactured commercially". Is a kit radio with 9V battery supply and morse code function not a station? So then when is a radio wave transmitter considered to be a "station" under the licence? Something that's defined by power output? Or what?

Isn't it correct to say that the key aim of the laws around LCD is to regulate spectrum usage and provide legal powers to enforce and prevent interferences? All else are but practical implementation to support that primary aim.

[VK2AAH]

When you connect it to an antenna... if you wish to learn about construction start with receivers, then if you build up to some of low power transmitter kit for the purpose of learning test it into a 50 ohm dummy load. If you do that you will not be "operating"... you will be "testing" but you will not be radiating a signal beyond the immediate vicinity. A station to me is a power source, a radio, and an antenna that is designed to radiate. Does the kit radio operate on amateur frequencies and have an antenna?

I totally agree with Owen on this one...

The way I read the limitations in the Foundation is that ACMA limit the entitlements to the skills demonstrated in the test. As your skills improve so do the entitlements.

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3YE]

Also note that your ham conditions don't stop you from building or using something on other frequencies if permitted by another licence type. Eg an FM bug kit covered by the lipd class licence or low power 433 MHz modules etc.

[VK2FABS]

Also note that your ham conditions don't stop you from building or using something on other frequencies if permitted by another licence type. Eg an FM bug kit covered by the lipd class licence or low power 433 MHz modules etc.

Good info!

[VK2MUS]

The regualtions may not have caught up with technology - example, lets say I am a foundation licence, I buy a commercially manufactured flex3000 software driven radio - I am not, it would appear, allowed to mod the hardware however the software side of the radio is open source and I could ( having the commercial software experience of many years) mod the software section of the radio - am I breaking the regulations ? One could create interference by either wrongly modding the hardware or software!!

I would love to hear the views of some of our ACMA forum members on this - does the ACMA consider both the Hardware and Software parts of a SDR or do they only consider the Hardware to be the physical radio. And if the former then do they have the expertise to determine if the software element has been modified

John
VK2MUS

[VK2OMD]

...

John,

The equipment restriction you speak about probably derives from part of the "Discovery Licence" proposal I wrote in 2003. The Discovery Licence was designed as a straw man to provide something tangible in the way of a new entry level licence package that could facilitate discussion of the practical aspects of such a licence, and to elicit communities opinions on possible changes.

The Discovery Licence was published on the 'net, and an online survey conducted. The draft Discovery Licence and the results of that survey were part of the CQVK submission to the ACMA in response to their discussion paper, the CQVK submission is still online at http://owenduffy.net/CQVK/CQVKAcaSubmission20031030.pdf if you want to read some of the history of the time.

So, the Discovery Licence contained the provision: "The licensee of a Discovery station must only transmit using a transmitter that is commercial off-the-
shelf (COTS) equipment that is in good working order and properly adjusted."

The rationale put forward was:
-Minimises the technical skills measurement equipment required to setup and operate equipment correctly; and
-Home brewing of transmitter equipment usually involves construction, internal alignment or adjustment, measurement and testing to specification and potentially design, and is the
province of a more advanced amateur.

In the event, the legislative drafters at ACA/ACMA used slightly different words in the Foundation Licence. There is a lot of similarity between the Discovery Licence proposal and the Foundation LIcence we have today.

The Foundation Licence was ALWAYS a balance between skills and knowledge required and privileges granted. There were an unlimited number of ways it could have been sliced and diced... but we have something that is the result of a substantial consultative process conducted by ACA and it broadly works... though there will always be a stream of people who think they would have done better.

The meaning of "commercial manufacture" could be tested in a court, and I would not like to fund a case that argues that community developed software is not part of a transmitter that depends on it for operation, nor that a transmitter containing such is of commercial manufacture.

You know, a lot of this stuff is a bit like a kid sitting at the table, and you cut him a big slice of cake and pass it to him, but he can't take his eyes of the rest of the cake, the cake he can't have.

If someone is seriously interested in radiocommunications tecnology and prepared to invest in themselves, in their own development, they will just get about upgrading.

Owen

[VK4WDM]

is a bit like a kid sitting at the table, and you cut him a big slice of cake and pass it to him, but he can't take his eyes of the rest of the case, the cake he can't have.

The good news is that most of the kids (young and old) just get on with eating the slice of cake - get on the air and have lots of fun even with the restrictions that come with the slice, then upgrade Same with the problems that come with restricted site for antennas, get something up, have fun, make improvements. My advice to the OP - just do it!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2FABS]

You know, a lot of this stuff is a bit like a kid sitting at the table, and you cut him a big slice of cake and pass it to him, but he can't take his eyes of the rest of the case, the cake he can't have.

If someone is seriously interested in radiocommunications tecnology and prepared to invest in themselves, in their own development, they will just get about upgrading.

Acknowledging your obvious experiences and knowledge in the field and with due respect, I'd think that such an analogy is not warranted here in a discussion on the legal limits of the various licences. Fact, that "kids like" behaviour is more a characteristic of human nature than limited to any particular class of licensees, and certainly has nothing to do with the level of interest in the field. At the same time it can be argued that the inquisitiveness of new hams to specifically understand the limits of their licence is also the same that'll drive them to explore the field technically. As in the classrooms, those students who only do what was told to them without asking questions tend to be those lacking creativity and just become a "product" of the system. Further, licence level should not be equated to be a sole reflection of interest as there are many other factors involved eg. Family, work, financial, time restraints and need. Otherwise, it's an elitist view that does no benefit to the dissemination of the field in a society. My 2c worth.

Coming back to the main topic. The historical perspective is interesting, in particular the detailed explanation on the band choices for the various levels was quite insightful. I liked that "risk managed design" phrase in association with the proposed Discovery licence. I note also that the ACA downgraded the proposal to allow 100W for the proposed Discovery licence to 10W. Interesting.

[VK2FABS]

My advice to the OP - just do it!

"OP" of this thread is actually you. But if it referred to me, then yes, I have just ordered the S call material from RES. With limited time, hopefully it won't take too much time if I just aim for that 70% pass rate. But given my experience of the F course and exam, I was surprised by how much I grossly overestimated the difficulty of the exam. The only "wrong" answer I gave was one that was within my professional expertise, one that I should have just answered as a lay person. Bummer! Thanks for the encouragement and this is addictive!