Are hams allowed to repair or modify mains-powered equipment

[VK4WDM]

I have been told by a workplace health and safety electrical inspector that only a licensed electrician or a person with an equivalent trade certification such as a communication technician can service, repair or modify mains powered appliances including radios, and that if equipment that has been worked on by a person without such qualifications was to cause injury or death there would be serious consequences for the person carrying out the work and for the organization on whose behalf the work was being done (in my situation a museum). He is also of the opinion that fire insurance etc would be invalid.

He wants to see where it is definitively stated in the amateur radio regulations that it is legal for hams to work on mains-powered equipment.

It's no good telling him "I know what I am doing I have been at it for 49 years." Nothing happens on this site unless it is passed by the WPHS committee.

Please no smart-A remarks. This is a serious situation that could affect all of us who have an an interest in using or restoring old equipment for museums etc.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK3ALB]

The rules in VK4 are pretty strict. All our VK4 guys had to get an S (?) license and work under the supervision of a bloke with a higher qualification. I think your inspector is pretty close to the target especially in matter related to your state.

The situation in VK3 (I think) is a little more relaxed but I hear rumblings every now and then that we need to follow the lead of VK4. There was a long discussion about this a few years ago in Silicon Chip.

[VK4TI]

I have been told by a workplace health and safety electrical inspector that only a licensed electrician or a person with an equivalent trade certification such as a communication technician can service, repair or modify mains powered appliances including radios, and that if equipment that has been worked on by a person without such qualifications was to cause injury or death there would be serious consequences for the person carrying out the work and for the organization on whose behalf the work was being done (in my situation a museum). He is also of the opinion that fire insurance etc would be invalid.

He wants to see where it is definitively stated in the amateur radio regulations that it is legal for hams to work on mains-powered equipment.

It's no good telling him "I know what I am doing I have been at it for 49 years." Nothing happens on this site unless it is passed by the WPHS committee.

Please no smart-A remarks. This is a serious situation that could affect all of us who have an an interest in using or restoring old equipment for museums etc.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

Up here in vk4 http://www.business.qld.gov.au/industry ... -framework
no ticket no touch

[VK2AVR]

The short answer is no. Certainly not for any commercial situation.

Our foundation licence prohibits modifying radio equipment, and standard/advanced allows it, but this is from an RF emissions point of view. There is nothing in any of our material about 240V safety, isolation distances, creepage, etc and it is possible to home-brew radios without ever going above 12V.

What you do in the privacy of your own home for your own enjoyment is nobody else's business. The implication for restored radios that are powered in a museum is an interesting one. In our society led by insurance and litigation it would seem like this may be a problem (isn't everything?)

[VK3ALB]

Our foundation licence prohibits modifying radio equipment, and standard/advanced allows it, but this is from an RF emissions point of view.

Where is that written besides the foundation manual? I've been looking for that for a long time. I'd be pleased to see it.

[VK2OMD]

I have been told by a workplace health and safety electrical inspector that only a licensed electrician or a person with an equivalent trade certification such as a communication technician can service, repair or modify mains powered appliances including radios, and that if equipment that has been worked on by a person without such qualifications was to cause injury or death there would be serious consequences for the person carrying out the work and for the organization on whose behalf the work was being done (in my situation a museum). He is also of the opinion that fire insurance etc would be invalid.

I am not familiar with Queensland, these comments relate to NSW but similar things may apply in other states.

There are state regulations that requires certain qualifications / licence for working on fixed power wiring that comes under scope of AS3000, similar but different requlations in different states.

There are national regulations about working on telecommunications and data cabling.

There are regulations about working on any aspect of security systems.

Certain classes of goods must not be sold unless approved, and that includes power supplies so there is no regulation to stop you making one, or importing one, but you are not allowed to sell it unless it is approved. Many older power supplies by brand name ham manufacturers were not approved in their day and sale (even second hand) is illegal in NSW. This is not so much about who works on something, but whether it can be sold if of unapproved manufacture.

There is regulation about 'Test and Tag' of certain electrical equipment in certain situations, interestingly the qualification requirements of the tester are rather vague.

I don't know of any regulation here that sets formal qualification requirements to repair (and test) electronic equipment in general.

Of course, you must always consider whether you are competent to perform some work, and the possibility of tort if there is an adverse outcome.

As always, it takes a certain knowledge to recognise whether you are competent to perform a task.

Ask your expert for the exact laws and regulations that he is talking about, and you can look into them.

Owen

[VK4TS]

Where is that written besides the foundation manual? I've been looking for that for a long time. I'd be pleased to see it.

You might find it in the manual but it sure isn't in the act.....

[VK2OMD]

...
He wants to see where it is definitively stated in the amateur radio regulations that it is legal for hams to work on mains-powered equipment.
...

I did mean to respond to this. Where it is defininitively stated in ANY laws or regulations that you are permitted to breath?

It is a sad day when we 'need' laws to permit us to do things, 'need' to imply there is an overarching rule that you must not do anything not explicitly permitted by some law or regulation.

I am left wondering whether your expert is just touting for some test and tag business. The joke of test and tag is that if you had tags on your mains cords, your hosts would probably be comforted.

Owen

[VK4GHZ]

Hi Wayne

You are no doubt aware of the "Restricted Electrical License"?
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and- ... tion-guide
This license can be required by electronics technicians (also applies to plumbers and other trades people) who have a need to disconnect mains equipment, or perhaps install a replacement hard-wired mains lead with a plug at the other end of the lead.

However, I gather you are approaching this from the perspective of restoring the internals of the vintage radios?
ie; back from the mains lead connection point into the inner workings?

Assuming you haven't seen this already, this might provide some useful information (?)

Electrical safety code of practice 2013, Managing electrical risks in the workplace:
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/__data/as ... gement.pdf

I also assume the mains operated equipment in question would be powered via a Earth Leakage Safety Switch (or whatever this week's term is), as is mandatory with all new dwellings.
Weren't safety switches meant to eliminate potentially hazardous situations?
This litigious bullshit seems to go around in circles.

If a $20 disposable electric jug in the workplace has a "test & tag" tag, it means it's been tested for safe operation in that organisation?
I cannot see how other mains consumer appliances (your radio receivers?) differ.

If you were to have all the items in question lined up, ready for some warm & fuzzy test & tagging service, you could probably get through quite a few in a chargeable block of time.

[ZL3PX]

Oh dear you people do get yourselves woundup into a knot different states different regulation interpretations we use to have 61 different supply authorities 61 sets of regulations now the 20 or so left work to ASNZS3000 even thats confusing sometimes

[VK5TM]

If you were to have all the items in question lined up, ready for some warm & fuzzy test & tagging service, you could probably get through quite a few in a chargeable block of time.

They charge per item, not by time (well, they do in SA). About $4 per item.

[VK4WDM]

I gather you are approaching this from the perspective of restoring the internals of the vintage radios?
ie; back from the mains lead connection point into the inner workings?

Yes that is correct. A common job would be the replacement of old capacitors (with appropriate safety precautions if there is a risk of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's). All equipment is powered by via a safety switch and I would get it "tagged and tested" when completed for the warm fuzzy feeling that such an exercise generates.

But if the inspector is correct then hams without a electrical license, at least in QLD, are restricted to working on 12v equipment only, so no replacing that blown diode on a FT101 power supply, restoring a old valve rig to use on an AM net, or doing what I want to do soon - convert a radio compass transmitter for use on the 600m band (some naughty ham has already done the receiver ). Has that WW2 equipment used in the RD contest been restored by a suitably qualified person?

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4TI]

I gather you are approaching this from the perspective of restoring the internals of the vintage radios?
ie; back from the mains lead connection point into the inner workings?


Yes that is correct. A common job would be the replacement of old capacitors (with appropriate safety precautions if there is a risk of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's). All equipment is powered by via a safety switch and I would get it "tagged and tested" when completed for the warm fuzzy feeling that such an exercise generates.

But if the inspector is correct then hams without a electrical license, at least in QLD, are restricted to working on 12v equipment only, so no replacing that blown diode on a FT101 power supply, restoring a old valve rig to use on an AM net, or doing what I want to do soon - convert a radio compass transmitter for use on the 600m band (some naughty ham has already done the receiver ). Has that WW2 equipment used in the RD contest been restored by a suitably qualified person?

73

Wayne VK4WDM[/quote]You can do the work under supervision , and that rule bends a long way when involving anything above elv

[VK5ZD]

Hi

... then hams without a electrical license, at least in QLD, are restricted to working on 12v equipment only ...

What happens if someone in, say, SA does a repair on mains equipment then sells it to a ham in QLD???

On a related matter, I have a Swan-120 transceiver from a deceased estate which I tested today prior to it being offered for sale. I plugged it in (just a two wire 'figure eight' mains lead) and everything came to life. Connected my signal generator to the antenna to do some receiver sensitivity tests and the house safety switch tripped. Turns out the power supply doesn't have a transformer; the mains gets fed straight to the rectifier, with one side of the mains (neutral, as luck would have it) connected to the chassis

Now looking for a 1:1 240v isolating transformer...

[VK5TX]

So who can fix a washer machine or dishwasher?

[VK4EA]

In vk4, you need a restricted license (1 week full time tafe course with work experience), endorsed for whitegoods, or an electrical fitter mechanic license (4 year trade). So, strictly, if you are employed to repair 240vac radio equipment in vk4, you have to have a restricted license endorsed for that type of equipment.

Sent from my MZ601 using Tapatalk

[VK4WDM]

So, strictly, if you are employed to repair 240vac radio equipment in vk4, you have to have a restricted license endorsed for that type of equipment.

What if you are doing the repairs or modifications on equipment you intend to use in your own radio shack? (not for display in a public museum).

The question about selling 240v equipment is also very important given the "boat anchor" interest in VK (I thought some of them might have replied by now). I recently sold an FT101B that I repaired to another VK4. Have I broken the law?

With regards to Barry's idea of doing the work "under supervision." OK, I could ask one of the RAAF licensed comms techs to "supervise" me but their knowledge about the job in hand would be zero. The current batch would not even know their way around a valve circuit much less understand the safety concerns beyond the 240v input.

I don't think the restricted course would be helpful. There is a lot of difference between replacing the element in a iron than replacing the bleed resistor in the power supply of a valve transmitter, or re-building the supply to be safer than the original - some are not up to current standards as the previous poster points out. The course needs "work experience." Where are you going to get work experience on vintage radios? VK4WDM shack? Who is going to deem me competent and issue the endorsement?

Hopefully I can located a suitably-qualified person in the Townsville area who familiar with vintage equipment and will volunteer (no chance of being paid) to do the restorations, or at least check my work. If not, then some beautiful old radios will sit mute on a shelf as a testimony to over-regulation in a nanny state

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK5ZLR]

This is quite an interesting topic.


The course needs "work experience." Where are you going to get work experience on vintage radios? VK4WDM shack? Who is going to deem me competent and issue the endorsement?

Well, clearly there is a business opportunity here.
VK4WDM could charge $50 to issue "Certificate of Competency to Work on Vintage Radios" or $100 for a "Diploma of Competency to Work on Vintage Radios"

There - problem solved.

[VK2OMD]

...
On a related matter, I have a Swan-120 transceiver from a deceased estate which I tested today prior to it being offered for sale. I plugged it in (just a two wire 'figure eight' mains lead) and everything came to life. Connected my signal generator to the antenna to do some receiver sensitivity tests and the house safety switch tripped. Turns out the power supply doesn't have a transformer; the mains gets fed straight to the rectifier, with one side of the mains (neutral, as luck would have it) connected to the chassis

The outcome could have been much worse.

For readers, receiving such an appliance, one should check its safety before applying power.

First step BEFORE applying power would be to determine if it is Class I or II.

Class II (double insulated) should be clearly marked with the appropriate symbol. If there is not a conspicous double insulated symbol or Class II designation on the rating place, then you should assume it is Class I.

If a Class 1 appliance has exposed metal it MUST have an earth conductor in the cable, and the earth pin of the plug top must have a low resistance connection to the exposed metal. This should be tested FIRST, and an automatic or semi automatic testers will perform this test on a Class I applicance FIRST. To proceed to energise the Class I appliance without passing this test is potentially dangerous.

Owen

[VK4GHZ]

Turns out the power supply doesn't have a transformer; the mains gets fed straight to the rectifier, with one side of the mains (neutral, as luck would have it) connected to the chassis

Iain, first and foremost, I'm glad you had a safety switch.

Your example highlights that home brew quality type death traps do exist out there, even if masquerading as commercially made.