The 3.4 GHz amateur band - it's future ?

[VK3AXH]

I support the retention of the 3.4G microwave band. Like all microwave bands 3.4G has it's own characteristics. Having just had my 1st contact on this band over a 132km distance I was surprised how well it performed. Microwave enthusiasts should be encouraged to setup home stations as well. I've had very good results on 2.4G with distances up to 274K S9 signals. There are many stations now operating from home on 10G as well. It's been found there are many propagation modes that can be used on these bands and I for one believe we should retain this particular band for the same reasons.

In the Ballarat area we have 5 amateurs either completed or almost completed their 3.4G setups. Even though some of you have no interest in these bands is no reason say well it's not used by many so why seek it's retention. If we applied this analogy across all amateur bands we might not have too many bandsat all.

Whether you have an interest in 3.4G or not I, like a lot of others feel you should submit your comments as requested to support those that do enjoy constructing and using this band.

my 2 cents worth - Ian VK3AXH

[VK2KRR]

Suggesting we give up bands because people don't utilise them or make enough contacts on them just doesn't make sense.

I'm pretty sure it would make perfect sense ($) to the ACMA to find bands not being utilised. How many times have people said 'USE IT OR LOSE IT' And if there are less bands people will be focused on a smaller number of bands and thus will find more activity and better stations. This is just my opinion, but I think I should be able to have my say on that matter rather than saying nothing and seeing the same problems continue.

the purpose of this thread was to alert those interested in the band

The purpose of the thread was to advise that the ACMA was seeking comment regarding the future of the band as far as I could see. I am commenting.
I'm very interested in all bands! but I hear Adam VK4GHZ frustration, there is no point having a band or equipment if all you hear is noise and no one bothers doing anything with it, especially when people try and organise activity sessions and they are ignored. Its hard enough trying to find someone on 70cm or 23cm to make a contact with, let alone anything higher I do believe there is a lot more that could be done if people really wanted to promote more microwave operation.

While you do a great job running the wspr program it's clear that not everyone is interested in participating. Should those that aren't interested propose that Digi modes be abolished so more people will operate voice? An outrageous suggestion for sure.

The primary reason we run 2m WSPR is to monitor propagation looking for distant or unusual paths workable on voice on 144 MHz and higher (amongst other things such as promoting more activity). 2m is generally the base band for tropo propagation openings. As QRP is used, once signals reach certain levels people can attempt voice QSOs. Perfect example VK5PJ with VK2XN last week.
I just called on high power voice 144.100 and 144.200...noise and no answer.. this happens most of the time, where were you? Placed a QRP transmission on 2m WSPR, got response with report from VK2YW, VK3XPT, VK3ZTE, VK3DXE and VK5LA from one single transmission.

[VK3ALB]

I'm pretty sure it would make perfect sense ($) to the ACMA to find bands not being utilised. How many times have people said 'USE IT OR LOSE IT' And if there are less bands people will be focused on a smaller number of bands and thus will find more activity and better stations. This is just my opinion, but I think I should be able to have my say on that matter rather than saying nothing and seeing the same problems continue.

I enjoy using the microwave bands and find them much more fun than 2m or 70cm. There are other people out there that favor microwave operation much more than 2m or 70cm. We ARE trying to use it or lose it. Should I say I'd be happy to give up the lower bands in favor of the microwave bands? Of course not yet you seem to be suggesting the very same thing.

The purpose of the thread was to advise that the ACMA was seeking comment regarding the future of the band as far as I could see. I am commenting.
I'm very interested in all bands! but I hear Adam VK4GHZ frustration, there is no point having a band or equipment if all you hear is noise and no one bothers doing anything with it, especially when people try and organise activity sessions and they are ignored. Its hard enough trying to find someone on 70cm or 23cm to make a contact with, let alone anything higher I do believe there is a lot more that could be done if people really wanted to promote more microwave operation.

Just because Adam hasn't made enough contacts on a given band doesn't mean we should throw that band away. Promoting microwave operation is probably as easy as trying to get people interested in WSPR activity. If they are interested they will come. The trick is to find someone with that spark of interest and nurture it.

It is my observation that berating people or blaming others for their lack of interest in your aspect of the hobby just pushes people away and make them less interested in participating.

The primary reason we run 2m WSPR is to monitor propagation looking for distant or unusual paths workable on voice on 144 MHz and higher (amongst other things such as promoting more activity). 2m is generally the base band for tropo propagation openings. As QRP is used, once signals reach certain levels people can attempt voice QSOs. Perfect example VK5PJ with VK2XN last week.
I just called on high power voice 144.100 and 144.200...noise and no answer.. this happens most of the time, where were you? Placed a QRP transmission on 2m WSPR, got response with report from VK2YW, VK3XPT, VK3ZTE, VK3DXE and VK5LA from one single transmission.

Where was I? Probably working on a 10MHz reference or a 3.4GHz transverter. How's YOUR 10GHz system going?

I turn on my radio at home these days and I get S9+ noise from HF all the way thru to 2m - why should I bother with a home station any more? I really enjoy building and testing my own equipment and really enjoy field days and activity days. I enjoy going out to the same old places with the same old boring faces/people (I prefer to call them friends and family) and using the equipment I have made.

Since it's just you and me talking here, I would never suggest you give up some aspect of your hobby in favor of another. I find it hard to understand that you'd be willing to give up a band that I have an interest in to boost activity in your area of interest.

This band is taking off now. It's never going to be as big as 2m and below but look at Macca's post. Five people in the Ballarat area felt motivated enough to build gear for the band - there's probably 20 or so 3.4GHz systems in VK3 alone. I think that justifies our secondary status. What I've seen on this thread from a couple of people is suggesting a negotiating tactic of starting on the back foot by offering up a band that they have no personal interest in BEFORE there has been any decision to change the status of it.

I don't get it.

Posted in the interest of wearing my heart on my sleeve.

[VK3BQ]

Hopefully emdrc gets lots of people at the vk3 2014 microwave day.

No one has commented yet though?

Maybe the 5 ballarat stations with 3.4Ghz gear can come along. And the other 20?

Sunday November 9th.

http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic ... 31&t=12465

[VK2GOM]

Simply owning gear for the band is not enough. There might as well be fifty 3.4GHz setups in VK3 but if nobody uses them, the band is still dead and under-utilised.

That was my reason for shifting my 10GHz gear. Apparently a 'popular microwave band' in VK2, but only in terms of people owning the gear. Getting them to use it was another story

Regardless of band, it all boils down to physically taking out/turning on the radio/transverters and making a noise!

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3AXH]

Interesting comments from all the postings. The bottom line is 3.4G enthusiasts want to retain this band and the best way to do this is to submit your comments as suggested by the WIA. I see some
grumblings about field day only actvity. It's not that difficult to setup a home station on the lower microwave bands. For instance I use a run of LDF450 to a grid pack antenna on 2.4G with all the gear in my shack. As previously posted running 10 watts I can still manage to have contacts at this stage up to 274 k's. I don't live on a hill top and surrounded by trees but it hasn't stopped me from having fun on this band. We have 4 local station in Ballarat on this band and 2 of us have permanent setups for operation from home.

Rather than continuing to air your personal likes or dislikes, how about supporting those that wish to use the 3.4G band and send in your submissions as requested to retain the 3.4G microwave band. In addition I welcome what the EMDRC is planning for the 26th October and I for one will be attending having previously attended days for testing 10G and 2.4G. It's a great opportunity for enthusiasts to not only gauge the performance of their own gear but to see how others do it as well.

Come on guys put you best foot forward and support those that need it.

my 2nd 2 cents worth - VK3AXH

[VK2AMS]

couldnt agree more Ian i am currently setting up another dish /feeds/ etc for 3.4 ghz and above as there are few microwavers in this area but plenty overseas so would not like to get all operational then lose 3.4 ghz!
cheers . mark VK2AMS

[VK2AMS]

Oops to clarify forgot to mention "ON EME THAT IS"

[VK4ADC]

One obvious advantage of 3.4 is the (current) lack of QRM from wide-band sources. Compare it to 2403 where you hear vast amounts on crap emanating primarily from WLAN systems on the 2.4GHz segment and nothing but device noise on 3.4.

My recent excursion to Beechmont for the Winter FD brought this home to me as I was pointing the gridpack towards Mt Tamborine and even though tuned to 2403.150, the amount of rubbish would have been enough to completely blanket any weaker stations. I was fortunate enough that I ended up beaming slightly west of Tamborine and that reduced the rubbish, one of the benefits of narrow beamwidth antennas. If the 3.4 segment is going to be mish-mashed with other spread spectrum uses, there goes a QRM-quiet part of the spectrum down the gurgler. Surely it is better to make the effort to hold onto the spectrum we have rather than saying it isn't worth anything because very few contacts have been made on it so far... Adam, where were you during the Saturday of the WFD when you could have had more contacts on all of the microwave allocations ?? (there were several stations operating besides me.)

Admittedly, you can't just buy 3.4 band equipment as simply as you can for 2.4 but you can build it. I don't have any Demi or Kuhne gear yet I run transverters on 1296, 2403, 3400, 5760 and 10368. Maybe when I finally get my towers up, I will get some microwave gear running from the home QTH but, in the meantime, I am using all of those bands during the Field Day events. I got more enjoyment from making just 2 QSOs on 3.4 over a 99Km path during that event than many other simpler contacts on VHF, maybe even better was that I made similar QSOs on my 2.4, 5.7 and 10GHz equipment as well.

I will get my mind around my submission but if anyone has already created something remotely like a form letter that could be personalised before submission to the ACMA before 30th July, let's see it. PM me if you don't want to make it otherwise public.

[VK2KRR]

Good to see a bit of talk about this and other microwave bands, and it would probably help if there was a lot more. Dont keep your projects to yourself, others may like to read about them, pictures etc, this would probably gain more interest from others. I know there are others that would consider microwaves of some sort, but because they have taken the time to set up 23cm and find very little activity, they question that its not worth the time or money to go any higher when its sitting gathering dust.

I turn on my radio at home these days and I get S9+ noise from HF all the way thru to 2m - why should I bother with a home station any more? I really enjoy building and testing my own equipment and really enjoy field days and activity days.

Lou, hence the beauty of WSPR on all those bands, if you cant hear, you can still send out signals and see who is hearing you via the web reporting on WSPRnet. You do get out quite well from your location. Even as little as 2 Watts to a horizontal omni would work.

Where was I? Probably working on a 10MHz reference or a 3.4GHz transverter. How's YOUR 10GHz system going?

The second beauty of WSPR is it can run in the background while your busy.
I am still gathering parts for 10 GHz and other microwave bands, and just last week picked up two excellent Andrew 60cm dishes with shrouds. I already have GPS reference running.
Putting much time into microwaves is hard to justify as mentioned, because its so difficult to find anyone to run any tests with. Ive been looking for people to test WSPR on 23cm since I have gotten GPS locking, and so far have not found any. The catch is they have to have 10 MHz reference also. So it is certainly hard to see how it will be any different going any higher
Lou, how about a deal? you set up 2m WSPR, I'll work on 10 GHz and 3.4 GHz (assuming we still get to use the band)?

Now that I have seen some of the passion for the band and reports of stations and activity, I think I would probably change my tune a little in regards to getting rid of the band. But you can understand where I am coming from in regards to seeing more activity.

[VK3ALB]

Good to see a bit of talk about this and other microwave bands, and it would probably help if there was a lot more. Dont keep your projects to yourself, others may like to read about them, pictures etc, this would probably gain more interest from others. I know there are others that would consider microwaves of some sort, but because they have taken the time to set up 23cm and find very little activity, they question that its not worth the time or money to go any higher when its sitting gathering dust.

The workshop thread does have plenty of pictures about people's projects and microwave construction does show up in there from time to time but yes it would be nice to see more. The way I see it personal justification for operating on microwave bands is a difficult thing. If one needs to get X return for the money invested or make so many contacts per year to justify an effort on the microwave bands then perhaps it's not worth it. VK is certainly not EU and microwave contacts are certainly harder to come by.

Lou, hence the beauty of WSPR on all those bands, if you cant hear, you can still send out signals and see who is hearing you via the web reporting on WSPRnet. You do get out quite well from your location. Even as little as 2 Watts to a horizontal omni would work.

I get that and it's clear that the bands are not always dead but I think you need to be there. If I'm not sitting there watching that screen then the report is to my mind little more than "what could have been" but I do see the value in it as you describe it. It just hasn't raised my interest.

Where was I? Probably working on a 10MHz reference or a 3.4GHz transverter. How's YOUR 10GHz system going?

We should never have to justify our activity to each other. I'm sorry I did that. It was indeed a bit of a popcorn moment.

I am still gathering parts for 10 GHz and other microwave bands, and just last week picked up two excellent Andrew 60cm dishes with shrouds. I already have GPS reference running. Putting much time into microwaves is hard to justify as mentioned, because its so difficult to find anyone to run any tests with.

You know that there are plenty of people just busting to help you on 10GHz. As I said earlier, if someone shows a spark of interest as you have then encouraging and mentoring comes naturally. You've shown that initial interest and people came out of the woodwork to help you. There are very few ops with 10GHz at home but I'm sure when you need it people will be more than happy to go out in the field to work you and help you.

Now that I have seen some of the passion for the band and reports of stations and activity, I think I would probably change my tune a little in regards to getting rid of the band. But you can understand where I am coming from in regards to seeing more activity.

The passion is always there it just shows itself in different forms. Sometimes enthusiastically sometimes despondently. Remember that this is not EU or even the US where you can almost spend 24x7 making contacts on a single microwave band and it will never be like that in VK. I do understand the desire to encourage more activity and it's something we all should do.

My only issue, as it was in my early posts, was that we should not offer up any of our bands as a bargaining chip in preference to another band especially before there is even a declaration that we might lose a band. In an idea world we'd furiously write letters every time a band was in jeopardy but that's never going to happen. I would say the best we could hope for is that if I'm not interested in a band I say nothing rather than jeopardize (you know what I mean) it for those that have an interest in it.

[VK2ZRH]

Well said, Lou. And thank you.

Now I'll get back to the WIA's submission to "save" our 3.4 GHz allocation.

[VK2OMD]

Spectrum prices vary, one sees prices from $0.10 per/MHz/pop to around $1.50 per/MHz/pop to around... depending on the use, and spectrum for mobile networks carries the highest prices.

Some years ago then Minister Conroy tried to set a reserve price well over $1 for some mobile spectrum... but he didn't sell it all, but he did sell some. Some players appeared to spend money on cricket rather than spectrum.

So at $0.10 per/MHz/pop the band is worth $700m, at $1.00 per/MHz/pop the band is worth $7b.

I am not sure how it can be made to look well used, much less worth government forgoing all that revenue.

Owen

[VK4CDI]

I have sent a brief submission already.
Same as Adam, I have had 5 QSO's as well, from a hill top. Probably worked everyone there is to work around these parts. Any band here really has to do double duty to make it worthwhile, so have setup for EME, and I don't have to go to a cold and windy hill top......

Cheers

Phil VK4CDI

[VK5GR]

Folks,

A couple of quick thoughts on the band:

* Australian hams have access to 300MHz in many locations - 30MHz would be enough to satisfy all activity (1 WBFM TV channel and some narrow-band work). I doubt we can justify any more and we are not likely to be allowed to keep secondary status if it ends up being used for telecommunications (i.e. NBN)

* The most likely consumer of the band will be NBN Wireless, although the other carriers may use it if segments are available in the future. There are already forecasts that say NBN grossly under-estimated how much RF spectrum NBN needed - and since NBN is LTE and LTE Band 42 covers this band with standards AND gear available today they will be definite candidates

* I haven't had the chance to read the paper yet (will do shortly) but I wonder what our principle sponsors - Dept of Defense - are thinking? Amateur UHF and Microwave spectrum currently exists either because it is DoD primary or ISM/LIPD bands. If they are prepared to give it up we don't have a lot of hope

* The international use of the band is even a bit flimsy as I don't believe there are that many countries in Region 3 that give access to this band to amateurs at all. Having said that the Amateur Satellite Service does have a slot allocated - and protecting that and any common EME window is at least worth an attempt.

The amateur service should put in a submission. Several of them would be good. Ideally carrying similar messages would be even better. We should never let a band go without putting up as best resistance as we can. In this case, however, don't hope to keep much of it. It is too valuable to other interests.

Regards,
Grant
VK5GR

[VK4DU]

Oh, and BTW there is no apostrophe in the the title.

It's means it is..

As you were.

Carry on.

[VK4ADC]

Bump.......

Only about 1 week left to send in your submissions.

Do it today.

And, technically, there is an apostrophe in the title because I put it there - even if grammatically in error .

[VK4DU]

Folks,

A couple of quick thoughts on the band:

* Australian hams have access to 300MHz in many locations - 30MHz would be enough to satisfy all activity (1 WBFM TV channel and some narrow-band work). I doubt we can justify any more and we are not likely to be allowed to keep secondary status if it ends up being used for telecommunications (i.e. NBN)

* The most likely consumer of the band will be NBN Wireless, although the other carriers may use it if segments are available in the future. There are already forecasts that say NBN grossly under-estimated how much RF spectrum NBN needed - and since NBN is LTE and LTE Band 42 covers this band with standards AND gear available today they will be definite candidates

* I haven't had the chance to read the paper yet (will do shortly) but I wonder what our principle sponsors - Dept of Defense - are thinking? Amateur UHF and Microwave spectrum currently exists either because it is DoD primary or ISM/LIPD bands. If they are prepared to give it up we don't have a lot of hope

* The international use of the band is even a bit flimsy as I don't believe there are that many countries in Region 3 that give access to this band to amateurs at all. Having said that the Amateur Satellite Service does have a slot allocated - and protecting that and any common EME window is at least worth an attempt.

The amateur service should put in a submission. Several of them would be good. Ideally carrying similar messages would be even better. We should never let a band go without putting up as best resistance as we can. In this case, however, don't hope to keep much of it. It is too valuable to other interests.

Regards,
Grant
VK5GR

Hello Grant

Spot on.

If Defence are directed to give it up for the NBN, amateurs could write 1000 submissions and they would all be ignored....

73
Glenn

[VK4GHZ]

It's becoming increasingly difficult to appreciate how a handful of OMs can possibly justify 3.4 GHz, if you take current industry commentary into consideration.

While 5GHz radio waves can deliver faster data speeds than 2.4 GHz, the laws of physics aren't without a sense of balance.

The trade-off for the higher frequency is that such signals find it more difficult to penetrate solid objects such as walls.

This means when you're running a dual-band Wi-Fi access point, generating both 5GHz and 2.4GHz networks, there's a crossover point as you move away where the supposedly slower 2.4GHz network actually outperforms the 5GHz network.

I wonder where forward thinking Telcos are looking?

Anything come to mind in between current 2.4 GHz - 5 GHz WiFi bands ???

Technology Speculator article is here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/art ... tion-wi-fi
(article is obviously written for the layman)


Article link presented as an FYI.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Read into it, whatever you like.
But a heads-up: It's no longer the 1990's. Hasn't been for a while.

[VK4DU]

It's becoming increasingly difficult to appreciate how a handful of OMs can possibly justify 3.4 GHz, if you take current industry commentary into consideration.

While 5GHz radio waves can deliver faster data speeds than 2.4 GHz, the laws of physics aren't without a sense of balance.

The trade-off for the higher frequency is that such signals find it more difficult to penetrate solid objects such as walls.

This means when you're running a dual-band Wi-Fi access point, generating both 5GHz and 2.4GHz networks, there's a crossover point as you move away where the supposedly slower 2.4GHz network actually outperforms the 5GHz network.

I wonder where forward thinking Telcos are looking?

Anything come to mind in between current 2.4 GHz - 5 GHz WiFi bands ???

Technology Speculator article is here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/art ... tion-wi-fi
(article is obviously written for the layman)


Article link presented as an FYI.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Read into it, whatever you like.
But a heads-up: It's no longer the 1990's. Hasn't been for a while.

Has anyone told the WIA?