Why don't DXpeditions run modern digital modes?

[VK4WDM]

I wonder why dxpeditions don't run modern digital modes like PSK (OK, a few do) and JT65?

Most of them run RTTY which is a very old mode that has been around since before WW2, but it is run using computer technology and digital interfaces these days and the same equipment can run PSK and JT65. Judging by the activity I hear on the bands the popularity of those modes is much higher than RTTY. OK, you may say you will need more ops, but the RTTY op could toggle between that, PSK, and JT65 quite easily because the macros would be the same.

I am not far away from DXCC on digital modes and the more entities available the better.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4TS]

The answer is pretty obvious....there is no demand for it otherwise they would use it...

[VK4WDM]

Hi Trent

Maybe, but there are lot of hams who chase various awards on digimodes. FT5ZM is running PSK. It will be very interesting to compare how many contacts they get on that mode compared with RTTY. It would also be interesting to ask the same question on a forum that has an internationally-wider user base.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK5PO]

RTTY was the ONLY Digital mode recognized up until recently.

The DXCC "desk" has made a change I believe.

My favourite pastime whilst VK9LA, and VI9NI was to run RTTY. 1,000's of Q's made.

CW of course is FB too.

73. John

[VK3HJ]

All digital modes are recognised by ARRL, for the "Digital" mode as of fairly recently. It used to be named the "RTTY" mode DXCC award. By default, WIA would recognise all digital modes for the "Digital" DXCC, or with CW and Phone QSLs, the "Mixed" or "Open" mode DXCC.
The use of RTTY by DXpeditions rather than other modes is likely due to efficiency. RTTY is fairly quick. PSK-31 is fairly slow. PSK-63 and PSK-128 are probably useful modes for DXpedition as they are fast and efficient.
I don't know much about the JT modes, but I understand the call-response cycle is long compared with RTTY.
Someone more expert, such as John could elaborate.
And remember, DO NOT run your brag tapes (macros) with your life story and list every bit of your station equipment when you are in QSO with the DXpedition. I've seen this happen! Set up some brief macros for DXpedition exchanges, especially if you can't type accurately at 60 wpm!
Wayne, if you want to knock over your Digital mode DXCC, just participate in a few Digi mode contests. I find most Digi mode operators confirm via eQSL and LotW too. You could even do DXCC in a weekend that way.
73,
Luke VK3HJ

[VK4WDM]

This question was asked of me on the air recently. I think Luke is right. The slow QSO rate would be major a problem with JT modes. There would also be a temptation to wind the power up and cause splatter as happens with RTTY sometimes.

Luke, I have been in the JA and OK RTTY contests but the number of available entities seemed to be small. Huge number of EU and JA.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK5PO]

DX-Peditions "primary" aim is to get as many stations in the log, as quickly as possible.

Using JT65 etc is so time consuming, it would clearly defeat that purpose.

73, John

[VK4GHZ]

It's not demand driven at all.
It's money driven - period.

In the several minutes it would take to complete one JT65 contact, that would be 20+ contacts in the logs with SSB or CW?
DXPeditions only care about maximising potential revenue from direct QSLing, which determines their focus WRT bands/modes, and where they target (EU, NA, JA).

It's all about the green stamps, not how "deserving" you may be.
Gotta love that term

[VK4WDM]

Maybe a touch harsh Adam. I have sailed in the Southern Ocean. It would take more than just the lure of "green stamps" for me to make the journey to any of those southern islands. The love of AR must be part of the motivating force surely?

I agree about the slowness of the JT65 being a factor, but it may be possible for the developers of the program to modify the exchanges to reduce the time of the QSO.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[ZL1RQ]

Simple solution.
Organise your own expeditions. I've done a few. Loads of fun and activity breeds more activity.

Alan
VK4WR

[VK4WDM]

Hi Alan

I worked all over the Asia Pacific region, including remote islands, for 30 years but never had time to do any ham radio. Unfortunately a bit old for that now, but a challenge for some of the younger ones

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4GHZ]

Hi Wayne
You need to differentiate between the casual "holiday" style trip that many hams make for personal reasons (and therefore self-satisfaction) -AND- a full-on "DXpedition", that probably receives funding from commercial enterprises.

Your original post implied you were asking about full-on "DXpeditions", and not the casual trip.

[VK2GOM]

I see the current popular DXPed is on their way towards raising a donation goal of nearly half a Million dollars. Is that the total expenditure of the trip? Is a portion of that (or more) raised in green stamps for direct QSL purposes? Is it run like a balance, hoping to at least break even and then make a profit share?

I'm simply asking the question I have no experience of DXPeds, and have never actively chased a QSO with one either, although I did QSO Lee in YJ0VK purely to say hello

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3HJ]

DXpeditions to remote locations, especially not those served by regular commercial airlines are very expensive because the cost of the boat charter is huge. You could probably look up the FT5ZM financials somewhere, but I would guess that 3/4 of the $450,000 budget is transport. The DXpeditions are funded up front by the expedition team members, with some of the costs later covered by sponsorship and QSL returns. I read somewhere that the FT5ZM team members had put up about $15,000 each to make this possible. Budgets shown are usually the costs from a common embarkation point, so fares and accommodation to this point and home again are considered personal expenses.
I'm up for around $14,000 to participate in the VK9MT expedition in March. The boat charter is around $90,000, with a total budget around $130,000. The team members may get a little back, depending on the level of sponsorship and support, but by far the bulk of the cost is borne by the DXpedition team members. This will be no "holiday". There are no pubs, restaurants or cafes on Mellish Reef. Nothing! What's there to see? Birds and bird s**t. It will be a long, hot, hard slog from start to finish.
If you think that the big DXpeditions are a money-making exercise, you're bloody dreaming. The amounts requested for QSL cards usually just covers the cost of printing and mailing the cards all over the world. Many people will throw in a couple of bucks extra to show their appreciation. Some will just whinge that they have to pay any money at all to receive a card, which will cost the DXpedition something, even if sent via the Bureau.
So, leave the choice of digital modes to the DXpedition. Some will have plans to operate different modes, or low-rate bands, because that is their particular interest. Usually, the plan is to do their best to meet the demand for various modes and bands.
I'd better shut up now.
73 and have fun,
Luke VK3HJ

[VK4WDM]

I did not start this thread to have a debate on the merit/ethics etc of Dxpeditions. They do a great job, often under very difficult circumstances. The question about data modes was asked of me by a younger guy who wonders why they use what he considers "old fashioned" modes: RTTY and CW. I told him what I thought, but I posted the question here because I thought it would be interesting to hear what others think. OK, what is the Wayne answer?

It all comes down to "effectiveness" VS "efficiency." The dxpedition wants to give as many hams the chance to would them as possible (NO I don't believe it is to get as many dollars as possible) and efficiency for them is determined by the number of completed QSO's per hour. Effectiveness is the number of stations that can be worked in low signal strength condtions and/or difficulty due to QRM, QRN and QSB without lots of repeats.

JT65 is highly effective but slow, so the efficiency is low. With skilled ops at both ends CW is a very effective and efficienct mode (NO, don't start a debate "the only real hams are CW ops or some such crap). Good old RTTY holds it's own too, and SSB very much depends on the conditions. That is very apparent on with FT5ZM CW ops knocking QSO's off at a much greater rate than those using SSB where there were lots of "QRZ"s.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4DU]

The only real hams are CW ops....

[VK4WDM]

I hope nobody takes that bait

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4WDM]

I have to take my comments back! FT5ZM is running a range of digital modes. The number of contacts are:

1 : HELL
72 : JT65A
1 : OLIVIA
3 : PACKET
7 : PSK125
22 : PSK31
15 : PSK63
77 : RTTY

Obviously not as active as CW (1,526) and SSB (1,475) but it is iteresting to see JT65 and RTTY are much the same. My guess is that they will be more active on digital modes later in their stint as the demand for CW and SSB lessens (if it does).

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK3HJ]

I have to take my comments back! FT5ZM is running a range of digital modes.

Where did you get that data Wayne?

I'm guessing it was from the DX Cluster Network?

The DX Cluster Network for those who don't know is a worldwide network were people can post their complaints about a DXpedition not working THEM, boast about all the bands and modes they've worked, make rude comments about the Italians "parla merda" in the "DX Window", tell anyone you don't like that they are an idiot, or tell everyone how darned good they are, and sometimes, useful information about a DX station's frequency and callsign.
The data must be filtered to make any sense.
As far as I know, FT5ZM will be running RTTY only as far as digital modes go.
http://www.amsterdamdx.org/

73, and GL,
Luke VK3HJ

[VK4WDM]

Hi Luke

I only use one network which is hamspots which I find reasonably reliable, but as you say, could be hot air, but I am keeping an eye on the waterfalls just in case. Old story, work first worry later . They have been working a lot of RTTY the last few hours. I will let things die down a bit before having a lick. That part of the world seems to be difficult from up here. Especially with a vertical and 100w, and being our monsoon season, QRN on the lower bands is bad. I have been impressed with their CW ops who are slowing down for slower stations which encourages them to have a go.

73

Wayne VK4WDM