Operation on 88-108mhz FM band

[VK2IL]

Note a lot of non-radio operators with Christmas light displays transmitting Christmas carols on the 88-108mhz FM band. Surely this can't be legal as one chap told me his "licence to operate" came with the transmitter (presumably from HK). When questioned further, he had no idea what ACMA stood for.
Anyone else come across this blatant kind of piracy?

[VK4BZ]

As I understand it, there is nothing illegal with a milliwatt FM transmitter in Australia. You can buy them from retailers in this country, and they are intended for personal, very short range stuff around your home. The problems these folks will run into is if they are broadcasting copyright songs...then they will need to pay royalties and it will start costing them.

That's my take on it anyway.

[VK2OMD]

Note a lot of non-radio operators with Christmas light displays transmitting Christmas carols on the 88-108mhz FM band. Surely this can't be legal as one chap told me his "licence to operate" came with the transmitter (presumably from HK). When questioned further, he had no idea what ACMA stood for.
Anyone else come across this blatant kind of piracy?

You sound like you challenged the person involved, pehaps appearing well informed?

If you consult the LIPD Class LIcence, you will see that certain transmitters are permitted in that band under certain conditions, so the existence of emissions of that type aren't prima facie evidence of a breach.

The "chap" may be operating within the law, and you acting as a quasi ACMA cop... plenty of those around these days!

Owen

[VK8VTX]

where did he say he got this transmitter from? if just a miliwatt job well than ok, but you can get some much higher powered 0.5/ 1/5/10/25/50 watt cheap Chinese 88 to 108mhz
transmitters from e bay without legal certification at all. it seems anyone can be a radio station now

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/88MHz-108MHz ... 4ac63d2502


73's

Joe VK8VTX

[VK2OMD]

where did he say he got this transmitter from? if just a miliwatt job well than ok...

Ahhh... no. Read the LIPD Class licence for conditions.

Owen

[VK4TI]

Note a lot of non-radio operators with Christmas light displays transmitting Christmas carols on the 88-108mhz FM band. Surely this can't be legal as one chap told me his "licence to operate" came with the transmitter (presumably from HK). When questioned further, he had no idea what ACMA stood for.
Anyone else come across this blatant kind of piracy?

http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Spectru ... ss-licence

I asked our closest "lighted" xmas house several days ago when first seen and his has to be legal , several hundred thousand lights and an fm tx is impressive and draws the kiddies , his signal is noisy 30 metres from the house boundary so I have to ask can you hear your bloke blocks away ?
Barry

[ZL3MF]

Note a lot of non-radio operators with Christmas light displays transmitting Christmas carols on the 88-108mhz FM band. Surely this can't be legal as one chap told me his "licence to operate" came with the transmitter (presumably from HK). When questioned further, he had no idea what ACMA stood for.
Anyone else come across this blatant kind of piracy?

http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Spectru ... ss-licence

I asked our closest "lighted" xmas house several days ago when first seen and his has to be legal , several hundred thousand lights and an fm tx is impressive and draws the kiddies , his signal is noisy 30 metres from the house boundary so I have to ask can you hear your bloke blocks away ?
Barry

Here in NZ we have LPFM which is designed for communities and schools also ideal for one off events like Xmas tree lights

http://www.rsm.govt.nz/cms/licensees/ty ... oadcasting

Cheers

Mike

[VK5ZD]

As I understand it, there is nothing illegal with a milliwatt FM transmitter in Australia.

LIPD class licence says is must not exceed 10uW EIRP (that's micro-watts).
I'd guess that anything from China is probably over the limit.

[VK4TIM]

I'd guess that anything from China is probably over the limit.

Just goes to show that the Chinese will make anything, the 146MHz cordless phones, Omni WEP-910D 147 MHz wireless headsets, the way overpowered 434 MHz car alarm pagers, and these things are just examples of devices manufactured to operate on frequencies or at power levels that are illegal in Australia.
Anyone can buy things on Ebay, and there's pretty much no chance of it being intercepted by customs, as it's not a weapon or drugs.

I have memories of finding a low powered FM TX in NZ that was not only severely over-modulated, but radiated spuries every 11 MHz either side of the carrier, up and down the band.
That TX sounded woeful with the dance or whatever it was music that was being pumped into it 24/7.

I've worked with FM Broadcast gear up to about 250W also, there's all sorts of specifications that transmitters must comply with, and for the prices advertised, they almost certainly would not comply with Australian/New Zealand specifications.

1Watt into a properly screened (commercial) dummy load, fed by dual screen cable (RG400) is audible over not much more than about a 50m radius.

[VK2IL]

Old mates signal was still stereo at about 2400 metres. Didn't ask to have a look at his transmitter as he was just a cashed-up coal miner from around here who doesn't give a rats behind.
As far as being an ACMA quasi cop, I feel we should all be mindful of this kind of operation as we have the technical ability to understand it's ramifications as opposed to old mate who was just spending money to look and sound cool. It also aids in protecting our part of the spectrum. What happens when he buys a four-pack of Baofengs for $79 on Ebay for his kids and finds the local 2m or 70cm repeater?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5x-Baofeng-U ... 3f2dff29cf

[VK2AAH]

Have you reported this to ACMA?

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3MIX]

I have wondered the same thing myself and am one who has considered to do Christmas lights to music one day, to do it properly you could apply for a temp broadcast license. In our area we had an arty farty thing where they broadcasted their show to the township in a similar manner using a temp license.

Just a tad off topic but i am sure many of us have walked into restaurants and have been given a table top order buzzer which run in the 450MHz range. Apparently there is only a very small number who have licenses to operate them yet today most pubs or restaurants have them.

[VK3XRI]

Down here there is heaps of people doing this .. the lipd is as stated 10microwatts and an area of 1.2 kms .. so I have been informed .. there is also a number of schools jumping on this as well running there own stations on microwatt power .. its all good providing no interference is coused and its with in the act ...

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

[VK2OMD]

Down here there is heaps of people doing this .. the lipd is as stated 10microwatts and an area of 1.2 kms .. so I have been informed .. there is also a number of schools jumping on this as well running there own stations on microwatt power .. its all good providing no interference is coused and its with in the act ...

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

You have been misinformed, the LIPD class licence does not state "1.2kms".

Whilst a 10µW EIRP signal might be heard for a greater distance depending on the receiving system and noise, ABA specifies a level of 66dBµV/m as the target min FS in a suburban area for 50% coverage 50% of the time. Under free space conditions, the 'coverage' then is just under 10m. The 10µW EIRP limit is not intended to provide good coverage for 1km or more, but it might be heard at that distance or more with a good receiver in a favourable and quiet location.

Owen

[VK3XRI]

Well thats intresting .. how then are the schools running microwatt tx from supplys such as the one near geelong
. Getting away with this ..there is more than one doing this and they are said to be running on the lipd licence

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

[VK2AAH]

What are they getting away with? If it is being used legally and radiates further than it should what of it? Are they causing interference? If they are report it...

RF doesn't look at a license & turn back when it reaches the limit of the coverage area. You can't regulate it like that even if some boffins in ACMA would like it to. How about amateur repeaters being used 150km out? I've got news for you... ACMA doesn't give licensed repeaters unlimited coverage either but some hams expect it. Pot-Kettle-Black...

Amateurs aren't ACMA field officers... if you have a complaint about a service report them to ACMA... because until they have been proven to be doing something wrong the phrase "getting away with" is totally unfair to the LIPD user. They didn't write the rules...

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK5ZD]

The current class licence is here: http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2013C00396
See item 21.

[VK3XRI]

I didn't say I had a problem with it , in fact the opposite , I thin its great , and a great way to get younger people be it kids or teenagers interested in radio ,
even if it is FM I have had a long association years ago with both community fm and narrowcast community fm , its great fun ... and I encourage anyone to give it a go ... even kids , hell I was once the youngest person on "fm " radio , or so it was said at the time and i no longer hold this claim to fame , some one younger came along after me on the same station ,,,

the point i am making is along the lines of this topic , there are some complaining or questioning the xmas tree light scenario , and this is another area that has come to light , as i have said there are a number on the south side of Melbourne ,

the interesting thing or the thing i wonder if as a VK licence holder (not that its relevant ) happened to wack up a micro watt tx and an antenna , and started txing i wonder even if we acted inside the act and law , if we would get a visit , unlike these guys or girls that are out there ,

i think that aust should have a licence system such as the NZ counterparts that allows 1 watt licence free , these community narrow cast licences that are running 1 watt are hourded , and the acma do nothing about it ,

i have looked at the local narrowcast licence that is un used and has been for a number of years , 10 or 15 to be close and was told by the owner i was welcome to it if i wanted to pay him around 5 to 10 000 bucks ,,,

as i type this email it still sits silent and un used !!!!

so as an alternative you could do the same with an lipd tx , licence free with the right antenna , such as some of these schools are doing , (someof them tx well over 1km , ) and use 10 microwatts into a vertical external antenna on a mast !!! pretty darn good set ups for what they are trying to achieve

its all radio folks just different areas !!!

[VK2AAH]

It is no different to those companies (and some country councils are shockers...) who use license free 2.4GHzish spread spectrum links designed for short hop office to office links on broadcast sites to give them a very cheap microwave link. They take a big risk because if they cause any interference to a licensed service they are gone- one call to ACMA- because the conditions of these is "no interference caused, no protection". Hams are just like any other licensed service- yes we pay money to ACMA but we also have some protection from services like these. I'm more sympathetic to those who try to operate 70cm repeaters at some urban sites (like Horsley Park here in Sydney) because the sheer volume of LIPDs make eradication as big a challenge as rabbits...

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2SWL2]

It is no different to those companies (and some country councils are shockers...) who use license free 2.4GHzish spread spectrum links designed for short hop office to office links on broadcast sites to give them a very cheap microwave link.

Hi Richard

As someone who has worked in this industry for about 13 years I can perhaps explain why there are so many class licenced point to point links around. To get 100 Mbps in a licenced link in Sydney used to need a 28 MHz wide channel at about $5000 a year. Newer technology means we can squeeze that to half the bandwidth and cost these days. Smaller companies with a couple of offices, or councils with many sites needing low bandwidth to things like community centres can't afford/justify that. Plus line of sight restrictions mean that often a telescopic mast on the roof is needed, feasible for an antenna but not a licenced microwave dish.

It's been a while since I installed a 2.4 GHz link due to bandwidth limitations as well as interference, though we still have some we service. Most these days are 5.4 or 5.8 GHz, where we can give the customer around 70 Mbps over a few kilometres even off a crowded site like Horsley Park Tower. There are rules as to eirp (4 watts at 2.4 or 5.8 GHz, 1 watt at 5.4 GHz). I know there are cowboys out there who ignore those limits, and I knew of one operator in Adelaide a few years ago running about 200 watts eirp to get a high bandwidth link over about 40km.

These links are designed for long hops though, reading the marketing blurb that comes with them they often talk about 70 or even further kilometres (though of course they fail to mention you won't get the full bandwidth at those distances).

As for causing interference - I am not sure what licenced services there would be in these bands to interfere with. But ACMA I doubt would have the capability to track it down anyway - we had interference on an 18 GHz licenced link near Sydney CBD and they didn't have the equipment to work out where the interference was coming from, despite us paying $10k per year for the frequency.

Note I do also work with licenced microwaves, millimeter wave (70 & 80 GHz) as well as laser comms.

Cheers

Richard