AR Cover - EMR exposure

ACMA, Licencing, and Examination discussion
VK2AVR

Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2AVR »

VK2VHF wrote:It strikes me that many magazine cover pictures are "staged" to arouse reader interest and desire. Perhaps the fellow was just posing for the photo without transmitting :wink: :wink:
Agreed.

Take this photo literally and the guy only has half a metre of antenna. the SWR must be horrendous!

Can you imagine how bad the printing costs would be if AR had to include a photo of the whole antenna.. The magazine wouldn't fit in my letterbox either!
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK3AUU »

Iain Crawford - VK5ZD

Did you also manage to ascertain what the actual radiating antenna was. If it was a quarter wave vertical with 2.5 watts of unprocessed SSB, the exclusion zone according to the VK3UM calculator is 0.21 metres.

I would suggest that all amateurs, old as well as young make themselves familiar with the EMR calculator available from the VK3UM web page. This particularly applies to those running large arrays and maximum power on VHF bands.

David
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2XSO »

What I think is interesting John is that the law is based on ARPANSA information and recommendations.
Now generally the law is the law. If the government sets the speed limit to 40kph on a freeway, then you're expected to obey that law.

Well, generally. Because what happens when the state makes a law which is, ineffective, un-policeable or based on a lie or incorrect information.

If a law is ineffective, nobody will obey it and nobody will police it. The police (or inspectors etc) are the first line of the justice system. They can choose not to enforce a law.
Likewise the judiciary can also choose to ignore a law which is ineffective or even not in the public's best interests.

The people may also likewise act against a government and have them removed from power with the mandate they repeal a law. (like a carbon tax, or a 40kph speed limit on freeways or cigarettes).
Or a union or the media might politicise the issue to boost their ratings or members etc.

The political options are there. From the noise being made by various people the issue isn't going to go away and the OH&S people are going to push this barrow while the rest of us become subject and comply whether we like it not. Quite simply, the lawyers and politicians are going to believe qualified scientists at ARPANSA over a group of hobbiests.

What might be of interest is to ask ARPANSA to show how RF causes harm. This is their job and they do work for us, the Australian government.
Well we already know how it causes harm, through direct heating of tissue. But the exposure limits set or recommended by ARPANSA have some degree of overhead.
The big question is.... "How much overhead ?"

Is it an excessive amount with no evidence but rather a precautionary value ?
This shouldn't be too much trouble because the people at ARPANSA should have already done this work to arrive at the recommendation.
What we should do is ask them to show their working and ask them to account for their recommendations.

This is where I think the key to the problem lies. For (random) example a limit of 0.02mW/cm^2 may be 10,000 times less than an exposure that might cause a burn.
Now if 200mW/cm^2 will cause harm, how much back off is a sensible exposure ?
Ten times less ? A Hundred times less ? A thousand ?

If your concerned about it, then I'd suggest write a letter to ARPANSA and ask them.
If the WIA hasn't already done this, (I can't imagine why they would not) then the information can be forward to them.
They might then use this information to lobby the various ministers. (They do do that don't they ?)

In the mean time, I might take my radman for a walk around the next hamfest and see how many hand helds exceed the limit.
Hmmm, I wonder if type approved UHF CB hand helds exceed the RF worker limits ?
VK5PO

Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK5PO »

A darn sensible reply Ash, as I would have expected.... Yes, it is a "little bit" loose really... I guess all one can do,
is that make sure that your station etc, is within the ACMA guidelines, no matter if incorrect or not. (based on the source of material ACMA used to set limits etc.)
You cannot possibly go wrong then I guess. (Hopefully a growth will not emanate from ones head though!!!)

73, And thanks for your insight.

John
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2GFR »

How's this for a quick fix? (all be it very radical & un-enforceable) :shock:

Switch off all broadcast radio transmitters (AM & FM)
Turn off all commercial two way radio users.
Turn off all TV transmitters.
Turn off all satellite services.
Turn off all mobile phone carriers.
So.... What's the big problem folks? :?
It is very relevant, no EMR.
However, back to the Dark Ages we go pre-technology.
Oh well I'll get the Horse'n'Buggy out of the barn & head off to the big smoke now... :wink:
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK5PO »

That is the nature of the beast Mark.... It is in our faces...all parts of our lives...

Kids don't even seem to be able to "go out and play in the mud etc" even!!!


And, as we know, "laws are made to be broken"

Now, where did I put my vestas and kero lantern?

John
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2AAH »

There is a popular tactic used by those who are opposed to regulation of EMR to "muddy the waters". It is easy to do because the science is head spinning at times and few people even within the communications industry have read the documents from cover to cover. I have to admit that I've read and reread it and after more than a few months I'm battling to remember the detail.

Whether some hams choose to accept it or not the ACMA have adopted certain rules to manage the risks associated with EMR and they have accepted the advice of ARPANSA as the experts on the subject. The rules apply to all so I would suggest that the suggestion that the WIA should challenge this only demonstrates delusional tendencies given that the amateur radio population is such a miniscule part of Australian spectrum users... sort of like an ant expecting an elephant to walk around them.... the ant can hope like hell it does but it can scream all it likes because it isn't going to pay attention to it. I think the WIA has better things to do than fight the proverbial elephant... you may have a fetish for fighting the impossible but the WIA's credibility should be protected rather than trying to satisfy a small rump of irrational amateurs...

Taken directly from the Standard...

"The purpose of this Standard is to specify limits of exposure to electromagnetic
fields within the radiofrequency range from 3 kHz to 300 GHz such that any
persons exposed below the limits will be fully protected against all established
adverse health effects.
As explained previously, an adverse health effect results in detectable impairment
of the health of the exposed individual or of his or her offspring. A biological
effect on the other hand may or may not result in an adverse health effect.
The current scientific evidence clearly indicates that there are RF exposure
thresholds for the adverse health effects of heating, electro-stimulation and
auditory response. The basic restrictions of this Standard are derived from these
thresholds and include safety margins.
There is some debate as to whether RF causes any effects below the threshold of
exposure capable of causing heating and electro-stimulation, and in particular
whether any effects occur at or below the exposure levels of the limits. If any low-
level RF effects occur, they are unable to be reliably detected by modern scientific
methods, but a degree of uncertainty remains. The data of long term exposure is
limited. It was considered that the evidence for possible low-level effects is so
weak and inconsistent, that it does not provide a reason to alter the level of the
limits. The limits specified in this Standard are designed to protect against known
health effects and may not prevent possible or unknown low-level effects,
although the safety margin within the limit may provide some protection against
such low-level effects.
Furthermore, the reference levels given in this Standard are based on specific
‘worst case’ assumptions regarding particular exposure conditions that will lead
to exposure at the level of the basic restrictions. In the majority of exposure
situations, such ‘worst case’ exposure conditions do not apply, and thus the
application of the reference levels will provide additional safety margin..."

The way I read this is that the purpose of the standard is not to look at EMR generated by low power handheld devices such as handheld radios and mobile phones. The reason for that is that in their view the scientific evidence is unclear or inconsistent. Instead they have focused on higher power levels where the medical evidence is more conclusive. They have then applied limits that are deliberately conservative.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject however I have been required to apply these rules to multi-user community base sites which I have either designed or managed. My knowledge is more practical than scientific though I know there are members here with both the scientific & medical expertise to better explain this issue.

Cheers

Richard
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK3QI »

Trash XSO makes some interesting points.


What I can't get my head around is the fact that it is perfectly legal to manufacture, market and sell Handheld UHF CB FM transceivers with 5 watts power level in Australia.

If you plug the figures in to the 3UM calculator, 432, 5watts, FM, 1/4 wave vertical and even allowing for inefficiencies in the antenna, the on-axis exclusion zone comes to 0.46 metres and yet it is perfectly acceptable to sell these devices to kids to use against their ears!

Even at 1 watt, the exclusion zone comes out to 0.21 metres.

Why isn't there a ban on selling these devices?

Cheers

Peter VK3QI
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK6OX »

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

This can apply to both sides arguing the subject thread.
73
Andy VK6OX

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK4BG »

Hi Guys,

I am not a fan of all this EMR crap.

Richard seems to think that AR should included in what really is, in my opinion, a commercial operator regime.

I don't operate 24/7, and I don't run high power. I am quite happy to stand 30 feet below my two element Ultrabeam , whilst it radiates 400W SSB ( however, I don't, as I have better things to do, and don't want to get sunburnt, which is far more dangerous than any EMR effect I am likely to suffer ).

For the amount of time the average AR Operator is on the air, transmitting , EMR is really of no concern...I can hear Richard frothing at the mouth already.

I had numerous emails to the ACMA when all this crap was first aired, as their worked examples were confusing, to say the least. To cut a long story short, we came to the agreement, that if you worked out that you discovered that you were non compliant on ANY band in use at your QTH, it was quite OK to simply twiddle the RF Power knob CCW till you complied...well, you can fill in the dots on what you can do next to get the Govt Gophers off your back. I have those emails printed out, for when the black cars arrive out the front.

What ever happened to common sense...is it in short supply in this Country ?

There appears to be a small gaggle of Hams on this forum , that for some reason, want to wave a red rag at the ACMA Bull...and draw unwarranted and unwanted attention to a problem that does not exist.

I can hear the keyboards already...go for it Richard !

Cheers,
Glenn
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2DDS »

Quick follow up to my previous post: I found the equations that describe E and H fields close to a short current segment. Integrating/numerically summing over a number of segments with an assumed dipole current distribution will allow calculation of the near field intensity.

The equations were taken from: Ramo S., Whinnery J. R., Van Duzer, T., Fields and Waves in Communication Electronics, Article 12.04 p642f

I'll post a scan of the relevant pages if anyone's keen. I'll try to find time to code up a solution in MATLAB/Octave (preferably Octave compatible MATLAB code so that anyone can run it as Octave is free/OSS) in the next week or so, I'm very interested in the results!

Ideally it would be nice to have a visualisation that draws an isosurface of constant H/E field intensity which designates the unsafe volume. OpenDX can do this nicely, it might be worth hacking up something in C so it runs faster but I'll see how Octave goes first; the equations have a lot of complex arithmetic which gets a bit fiddly in C.
Attachments
IMG_6514.JPG
VK5PO

Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK5PO »

It is getting almost personal..... I would hate to piss you off Glenn!

John
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2AAH »

Glenn,

You and I can beat each other over the head until we are both senseless and it will not change a thing.

ACMA make the rules.

Amateurs and the WIA do not make the rules.

Two indisputable facts and I don't need to froth at the mouth to point these out.

Go your hardest fighting ACMA... my money is on ACMA.

And EMR is not a "commercial regime" concept. An amateur repeater running at 120W into an unlimited gain antenna as distinct from "commercial regime" services limited to 83W EIRP... which is the greater EMR hazard? Both are capable of 100% duty cycle... so amateur generated EMR is "OK", commercial EMR is not? Get a grip...

The amateur radio sector would have some chance if it had an ally. Does ARCIA support relaxing the EMR rules? Does the NCCGR support relaxing the EMR rules? Those two bodies represent commercial & government spectrum users. Does APCO or TETRA support relaxing the EMR rules? They represent most of the manufacturers... In the US we have seen risks result in tightening of standards- for example the Factory Mutual Intrinsic Safety standard... no-one is heading the other way (no-one with money to lose would be so stupid). So please tell me what group is going to back the WIA in any challenge to the ACMA EMR rules?

Cheers

Richard
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK4BG »

John ( 5PO ) and Richard ( 2AAH ), and all the reat,

Guys, for God's sake....we are NOT commercial operators, we don't Tx 24/7, and I hope most of us have some common sense....Richard, you constantly refer back to commercial operations, and try to link,AR to what commercial operators are doing. By your own admissions, you maintain/design base stations and repeaters that probably operate 24/7.

Someone made the comment that " older amateurs" maintain that we are an experimental group...well, we bloody well are.

Richard, John...how many hours would either of you Tx in one week...or a month...a year..in AR operations. Are your antennas at your back door ?

I'm not trying to piss either of you off...or anyone for that matter, but I simply CANNOT get my head around this nonsense.

I'm quite happy ( well, not really, but I'm ready ) for the ACMA types to arrive at my front door after my recent postings...I'd LOVE to have the argument I've been trying to put here on the forum. If they wield the big stick and shut me down, well, the hobbies stuffed. This EMR crap is exactly that, in relation to AR operations, and no amount of bleating from the " true believers " will convince me to " toe the line "...OK, I'm a moron...but look at what this crap will do to this hobby in the long term, for what perceived gain...bit like made climate change..BS.

Cheers,
Glenn
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK4BG »

Ah bugger...my last post ...last sentence " man made climate change "....I hate this keyboard.73
Glenn
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2AAH »

Glenn you aren't p!ssing me off... when I first read the ARPANSA/ACMA rules back however many years ago I still remember thinking "crap, this is going to make life difficult...". No-one like having rules that make site owners put up extra fences, spend money on pretty yellow signs most never even read, and pay consultants to produce site folders and store the data on a website for few to ever read...

But I repeat... ACMA make the rules.

Being an experimental hobby does not give anyone the right to ignore the rules... some here hold experimental licenses, you don't. You hold an amateur license so the rules apply to you... don't bother to argue with me because ACMA MAKE THE RULES!!!

I don't ask you how many hours you operate Glenn but I'll show you the courtesy of a forthright reply. As a result of a marriage bust-up I no longer live on a farm with oodles of space for wire antennas (which I used- my log is in qrz.com) so I'm currently off the air. I've just invested in a new FTDX-3000 and SDR and a mag loop for home use and I've spent the last few days getting my IC-7000 fitted to my SUV... so please don't suggest I'm not committed to this hobby- I'm every bit as committed as you are. Now cut out the personalisation of what is a genuine techno-political issue.

Glenn if you and others feel so strongly about the WIA fighting this issue will you be at the next National convention? It is in you area next year- I wonder how many will actually put their money where their mouths are and argue this at the WIA AGM?

Cheers

Richard
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK4BG »

Richard,

I have no doubt that you are keen on the hobby , otherwise, why are you here on the forum ?

Likewise, I'm a long term licensed operator, and when this EMR stuff came along, I looked at it and thought " why...what on earth has EMR got to do with AR operations". You state that it is the law, and ACMA have to apply that law to anyone who makes/emits RF. Well, there is such thing as poorly thought out legislation and law. Bicycle helmet law, the loopy carbon tax, the new Qld Bikie laws...the " Suits" get it wrong on a regular basis.

Just because the ACMA have adopted this crap does not make it right, and relevant to AR operations...and it is so easy to circumvent, it is laughable.

I own a Porsche ( I don't..), so I'm going to speed...but catch me.

Really, forgetting the argument above...how many AR operators have been made into crispy critters by RF ? Is there any documented history of repeated and regular events where it can be proved that an AR Operator has caused significant damage to his/her health or the health of others ?

I see your point of taking it to the WIA, and asking them to take it to the ACMA...yes, pushing water up hill with a stick would be a simpler task.

I'm going to continue enjoying my hobby, and completely ignore this nonsense...and apply common sense. If I get a visit, so be it, and I could careless.

Cheers,
Glenn
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2OMD »

VK2MEV wrote:...

Ideally it would be nice to have a visualisation that draws an isosurface of constant H/E field intensity which designates the unsafe volume. OpenDX can do this nicely, it might be worth hacking up something in C so it runs faster but I'll see how Octave goes first; the equations have a lot of complex arithmetic which gets a bit fiddly in C.
An interesting project Geoff.

You might be replicating to a small extent what takes place in NEC.

I use NEC-4 to do a spatial analysis of E and H fields (separately) in the space around an antenna to evaluate compliance with the standard.
Clip 083.png
Above is a plot of H field at head height in the plane of a G5RV in inverted V configuration at a certain power level, the origin is under the centre of the antenna, so the plot is just one side and just the region around head height, a fuller plot shows it is safer at lower heights... just that 4NEC2 has some graphics bugs on larger plots. It can be seen that the H field max is not at the centre of the antenna, but well towards the end, a result of the current distribution on 20m and the inverted V configuration.

There is a very popular tool used by hams which apparently has ACMA endorsement though I cannot see a clear statement of that, or the methods used within that calculator but its results do not suggest separate analysis of E and H components at lower frequencies that appears necessary under the standard.

That is fortunate for hams as I can't think of any inexpensive tool that discloses its methods and can calculate E and H components separately.

Something you may find interesting is to plot the value of E/H in the space around an antenna, it varies quite widely, converging on 120 pi a long way from the antenna. This is no doubt the motivation for the standard requiring separate analysis at lower frequencies.

Owen

PS: I understand that there is a revision to the ARPANSA standard expected, and that it may set lower exposure limits in some scenarios.
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2OMD »

VK1OD wrote: Something you may find interesting is to plot the value of E/H in the space around an antenna, it varies quite widely, converging on 120 pi a long way from the antenna. This is no doubt the motivation for the standard requiring separate analysis at lower frequencies.
Ah, I have one...
Clip 114.png
You will see that the far field assumption of E/H=120pi is not valid in the near field area, and tools that pretend it is by calculating a power flux density and then E and H using 120pi may produce invalid results.

Owen
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Re: AR Cover - EMR exposure

Post by VK2AXL »

The ACMA make the rules. No argument there. But that doesn't mean they are fair. I feel Glenn makes a few good points.

Taken from this weeks WIA news-
Embroidered antenna is flexible and water resistant
A prototype garment incorporating an embroidered antenna has been produced by
researchers from Nottingham Trent University and Loughborough University.
Search and rescue teams could benefit from the newly designed antenna, which
is fully flexible, lightweight and water resistant.
In a bid to transform how wearable radio communications are sent and received,
the two universities and several industry partners have developed the
technology to design an efficient antenna that can be applied directly onto
clothing using a mass production process.

A two way radio antenna you can actually wear. I hope the WIA don't put a photo of one on the magazine cover.

I presume they will not be marketed in Australia.
Jack VK2AXL
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