Show us your E's and Tropo setup

[VK2FAK]

Hi all...

Been having a look at the Logger of late and seeing the good activity hunting those E's as you call it, and anything else that will extend your signal....

But sit there and wonder what is it taking to get some of that success .....type/size of antenna, is a Pre-amp being used and maybe a power amp...and are your antenna 20m in the air or low....

Its all interesting, but what does it take..?

John

[VK2ZRH]

Your question might turn up some interesting results, John.

BTW, its Es (denoting sporadic E, and pronounced "ee ess"), not E's (denoting "E its")

After all, we don't write Ohm's or MH'z

73, Roger Harrison VK2ZRH

[VK4WDM]

Hi John

What does it take? Not much really.

I have a 5 el 6m yagi and a 12 el 2m yagi on a mast 8m high, and verticals for both bands. I run 100w on 6m and 50w on 2m maximum, with no fancy pre-amps etc.

I can work all over VK and ZL on 6m (and TEP if its in).

On 2m I have worked as far away as Ceduna in VK5 (I live in Townsville) and heaps of VK2's and VK3's.

If sporadic E really kicks in the results can be astonishing even on a vertical or whip. I have worked a guy with a hand-held in Melbourne on 2m, 59 both ways.

Give it a go!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK3ALB]

My setup on 2m for the last few years has been a 5el yagi @ 6m agl and 100W. When we have an Es opening I think it works just as well as the big guns and I've worked into FNQ and the ZL north & south islands including VK3FMAG on magnetic island and all contacts were 5x9+++. Of course when conditions are marginal I'm out of the game well before the big guys.

[VK3AUU]

It may be that you can work interstate on 144 with a piece of wet string when there is sporadic E, but you will sit around listening to white noise and garbage for the other 99 percent of the time. It isn't hard to build at least a 10 element yagi and put it up 6 metres and work somewhat further than the next suburb under dead band conditions.

David

[VK3DXE]

First off for 2m and up work, RUN A PREAMP. And run horizontal polarisation.


Just in case you didn't get that, RUN A PREAMP, even if it's in the shack with a long piece of crappy coax between it and the antenna, it will usually make some improvement to what you're hearing, especially if you're running a commercially made transceiver. Even a 3dB improvement in NF means the signal you're listening to spends more time on the positive side of the readability curve.


Anyway, now that's out of the way, my station which works almost acceptably for Troppo, Es, MS and even a little EME, depending on the band:

6m - 100w to 1/4wave whip at 7m AGL.

If I had the room at the current QTH, I'd be running a decent sized LFA yagi, but even this modest setup allows me to work VK/ZL on Es when conditions are good or better. Haven't heard anything further afield.

2m - 200-300w SSPA to single 10el LFA yagi (5.3m boom) at 10m AGL, full Az/el control.

70cm - Nil antennas at the moment.

My Antenna farm:



Again, if I had more room, this would be bigger. I have a 2nd identical yagi ready to go up when I finally move to a QTH with enough room. I'm limited by local noise in many directions, and being only 2km from the CBD really stuffs my horizon to the northeast towards Sydney and Canberra. My noise-floor here is also around 10 - 15dB higher than your "average" suburban location, due to my proximity to the CBD, various local commercial premises, traffic light controllers, etc., etc. Despite the handicaps though, I'm reasonably happy with how well I manage to hear. I actually run 2 preamps. The first is an SSB Electronics unit, the second is an old Mutek one. Both have reasonably tight bandpasses and have significantly improved my receive system performance. I generally run the IC-7000 with it's attenuator on now, as I have plenty of gain in the preamps. It seems I was still suffering front end overload from strong out of band signals prior to going to the 2-preamp system.

Main rig is currently an Icom IC-7000. Depending on the type of noise, the DSP can make up to 12 - 15dB improvement in readability. The biggest limitation of most commercial rigs is their lack of strong signal handling capability and relative deafness. I laugh when I see (mas)debates on eHam about how how crap one particular rig is because the proponent's favoured box has a "hot" receiver. Most commercial boxes have crap receivers - run a preamp. During big Es openings and contests is when you'll start to appreciate the importance of strong signal handling abilities of your VHF+ rig.

My next upgrade well be to a higher performance HF rig (TS-590s has good specs) with high quality transverters to 2m and up. Have a look at the Sherwood Engineering measurements to see how well your rig matches up: http://www.sherweng.com/table.html. Interesting to see that some of the most popular rigs haven't made it on to the list.

Edit: I should have included real world performance earlier:

Under "normal" band conditions, I can generally work similarly equipped stations out to around 400km on troppo. With Aircraft Enhancement, that extends to around 650 - 700km depending on direction, flightpaths, etc., under good troppo conditions further. When Es is running, I can usually work anything I hear.

[VK3ALB]

It may be that you can work interstate on 144 with a piece of wet string when there is sporadic E, but you will sit around listening to white noise and garbage for the other 99 percent of the time. It isn't hard to build at least a 10 element yagi and put it up 6 metres and work somewhat further than the next suburb under dead band conditions.

David

Understood David however with S7+ noise from electric fences, and power lines and goodness knows what else in my area there seems little point. I very much enjoy the Es season and that's enough for me. However, two months ago I was given a 10el yagi which is sitting now at 6m waiting for some action. Only one contact so far with VK5DK last night. If it works out I'll revise my report.

My intent was to show that even with modest equipment Es operation is within anyone's reach. For the record here's the 10el yagi.

[ZL3ADT]

John
It also takes several truck loads of listening, more so on 144 with only 1 or 2 Es openings a season to VK.

While at home or mobile locally I monitor 6 and 2 when not in shack.Have worked heaps of DX this way.

As the Es seasons are so short I still make the most of them.

Ross

[VK5ACY]

I have operated mainly 2m SSB from various locations for around 35 years, some locations much better than others for various reasons.

My current location is near Bowhill on the River Murray about 90km East of Adelaide. I rent an old farmhouse with closest neighbours at 7km.

240VAC power comes via a 19kV SWER line which - for most of the time - is essentially noise-free, even on 160m...it's magic !

The current system uses a 13 element YU7EF-design Yagi for 2m and an ATN 8 element 'wideband' Yagi for 6m. These antennas are
shown at the YU7EF website...see this page for the picture down the page "EF2013M built by VK5PJ". Peter built two such Yagis and I
use one of them....Thanks Peter !

http://www.yu7ef.com/ef0213m.htm

The 2m Yagi is fed with about 15 metres of LDF4-50, into a BF998R preamp (kit) from MINIKITS. I use a HENRY RADIO 2002A PA
running a 3CX800A7 which cruises easily at 400W PEP. I have a choice of 2m radios but prefer my IC-7000 with its excellent DSP
Noise Reduction.

Very soon I will also have a 70cm system running with a 17 element DL6WU-design Yagi, IC-820H and home-brewed PA with
4 X MRF650 Bipolar devices for around 300W PEP. AN old VK5 ESC preamp using a CF300 GaAsFET will be used until maybe something
'better' is found/built/donated/whatever.

My station is on a very windy hilltop - my 'driveway' is 2km of sandy track down to the highway - my station cannot be seen from
any public road......

I can work well-equipped Melbourne stations just about any time on 2m and can always hear the VK3RGL 2m beacon at around 540km.
A photograph of my view toward Melbourne might suggest why I get into Melbourne fairly easily...pic follows...My place is 150m above
sea level and pretty much every direction is 'down hill' This is my best VHF Location..ever !
The 10m-high pole in the picture holds up one corner of my full-size 160m horizontal loop antenna which is fed with balanced feeder
and works very well on all HF bands - and HF is sooo quiet...
Also to note is the ability to work Leigh VK2KRR to the East at any time at ~690km...well, we've never failed to make contact even on
days with 'poor' tropospheric propagation....another -

I might add more to this dribble when I think of something..

:- oh yeah, Es ! Last season I worked several ZLs and VKs via Sporadic E - a simple system would have worked for this mode.
Just last night I worked 4 Sydney-area-based VK2s, with signals around the S9 level....great fun.

Around 6 years ago I worked VK4FNQ when mobile in my car in the 'burbs of Adelaide, using a half-wave whip and 50W from
my long-gone-now FT-857.


Bill VK5ACY
PF95sb

[VK2GOM]

My setup involves a short vertical on a pole lashed to the side of a washing line frame with numerous Nylon tie wraps

I have worked 1800km+ under Es conditions with 50W on 2m.

I would like to run a Yagi; in fact I've tried before, but it's not practical in my backyard since I can't mount a rotator on the pole.

(I am still investigating horizontal 2m omnis)

Now if I had permission to put a few rawl bolts into the wall things would be very different... the joys of ham radio from an overpriced rental gaff with no garden

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3DXE]

My setup involves a short vertical on a pole lashed to the side of a washing line frame with numerous Nylon tie wraps

I have worked 1800km+ under Es conditions with 50W on 2m.

I would like to run a Yagi; in fact I've tried before, but it's not practical in my backyard since I can't mount a rotator on the pole.

(I am still investigating horizontal 2m omnis)

Now if I had permission to put a few rawl bolts into the wall things would be very different... the joys of ham radio from an overpriced rental gaff with no garden

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

Rob, I've managed to run some decent sized 2m yagis in rentals in the past. People see them and don't see them. They usually see a "tv antenna" and move right along.

Here is my antenna and mast from the last rental I was in - 6 x 1m lengths of tube salvaged from an old trampoline (these were the bits that supported the safety net), they fit together at one end, and then lashed to the pergola or any other suitable structure at around 2 - 2.5m. This was good enough for a number of VK5 troppo contacts, a number of VK4 Es contacts, much of VK3 and southern VK2 on troppo/AE and even several partial EME contacts with 50w. This one was armstrong, but that was my first armstrong system for many years.

[VK2GOM]

Hi Alan, I built a 7ele LFA for 2m, and did use it briefly, 5m above the ground on my pole. The snag was, the shack is about as far away from the pole as it could possibly be (and upstairs), and running back/forth turning the beam by hand for transient signals was a bit fruitless.

If I had a rigidly mounted pole that wouldn't blow down on the next day with a moderate breeze, I'd put a rotator on it. In fact I even bought a nice Yaesu G450 rotator with the intention of trying it, but common sense got the better of the experiment and I sold it again.

All down to a rental agreement that says I cannot affix anything to anything - so my tie wraps are still technically 'illegal', but at least they can be taken off quickly when the teenage girl in the miniskirt and high heels appears for our annual official rental inspection. 5 yearly inspections so far and counting.

But it doesn't stop me working 1800km+ during Es events

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2KRR]

Bill VK5ACY,
All I see when looking at your photo is paradise! Amazing take off.

John

But sit there and wonder what is it taking to get some of that success .....type/size of antenna, is a Pre-amp being used and maybe a power amp...and are your antenna 20m in the air or low....
Its all interesting, but what does it take..?

John, you can hav full legal power, great pre-amp and big antenna array, but if the conditions aren't there, your signal will go no where (but into space). I know from experience . But if you do have such a set up and the conditions come your way, then your chance of success is much increased, as is your ability to pull out weaker stations etc. So its not just a matter of put up a huge antenna and automatically you have success.

Ive often heard numerous reports of lucky people working 2m Es from their omni vertical antennas. This is because 2m virtually becomes like 10m under E conditions. I have a recording, which is also on youtube where u can hear Jeff VK5GF using an omni vertical to work ZL1BT, double hop.

Thus, its not so much about your stations set up. But rather more about your location, your take off angles, surrounding trees and houses, hills. And being on air at the right times. These things are particularly critical for tropo. Though with Es location is much less critical but being on air at the right times is.

As for photos, scroll down the bottom of this page http://www.vk2krr.com/best_distances_vk2krr.htm and there are a number of photos.

[VK2FAK]

Hi all....

Rob ..5 inspections seems a bit much....and not so sure that its legal....but can understand them wanting to do it...

Do the owners know you are a radio amateur .....if so have you asked....that if you don't do anything thats permanent and not fixed to the house or such...would they let you put something up..

I remember seeing a drum filled with cement and a pole inserted for a short mast in one of VK2KRR's photos .....If you did something like that a little more pretty....put a 2m pole in the cement....chuck an umbrella in it for show...then use a mast that would insert inside the fixed section...should be stable enough to get you up a few metres.....put a few inches of dirt on top and grow a vine to pretty it all up a little...I bought a Passionfruit vine recently...big leaves and grows quick...it would be up that 2m section in a month...

John

[VK2GOM]

Hi John, I like the concrete oil drum idea, but it would be a swine to move/dispose of if we ever moved out!

5 inspections in 5 years isn't too bad... 1 a year. I think they're meant to do 2, but they cut us some slack since we look after the place.

I'm happy with my vertical for now Although I would still like a horizontal omni. I might treat myself... there are a few on the market. I would build one but my analyser stops at 60MHz.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3DXE]

Hi John, I like the concrete oil drum idea, but it would be a swine to move/dispose of if we ever moved out!

5 inspections in 5 years isn't too bad... 1 a year. I think they're meant to do 2, but they cut us some slack since we look after the place.

I'm happy with my vertical for now Although I would still like a horizontal omni. I might treat myself... there are a few on the market. I would build one but my analyser stops at 60MHz.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

Actually reminds me, I used a heavy "outdoor setting" umbrella base (weighed >20kg) to mount the base of the mast into in the pic above. It was lashed to the pergola with occy straps, so easily and quickly dismantled as needed. I could even go up to 8m by inserting extra 1m sections of mast when weather conditions were calm and just as quickly make the whole thing disappear during annual inspections.

My current shack has only a set of French doors out onto the balcony/terrace (no windows), so everything is quick-disconnect. Coax is easy, but for rotator cables I use molex-type plugs to quickly disconnect and hide them away when the outdoor area is being used. We've had the house "sort of on the market" here recently, and despite a wall of radio gear, hardly anybody even noticed the antennas just outside on the roof. People simply don't "see" moderate sized VHF+ antennas.

[VK5ACY]

I get a full house inspection every three months - yep, every 12 weeks !

I have permission to install 'stuff' including the concrete tower base...I only have to notify the agent.

[VK2FAK]

Hi all...

Rob, your right one a year is quite ok, I read it as 5 in the year....my error..

I agree that tying to get rid of the drum filled with concrete would be difficult, but there is no rules saying it has to be one solid piece ....can always make it, say 3-4in layers by letting each section dry, put a piece of plastic or some other material between layers....same weight just easier to dismantle when your done with it...just need to make the base a little wider to make it even harder to tilt it.

But this is just me working an idea out.......



John

[vk1da]

Hi Alan, I built a 7ele LFA for 2m...

If I had a rigidly mounted pole that wouldn't blow down on the next day with a moderate breeze, I'd put a rotator on it. In fact I even bought a nice Yaesu G450 rotator with the intention of trying it, but common sense got the better of the experiment and I sold it again.
...

Rob

Have you considered putting the rotator on the ground and putting your existing mast and the 2m beam onto that? Your existing lashing method will allow it to rotate and the rotator will make the beam worth while. I use that method for my field antennas and it vastly reduces the complexity and strength required of the mast as well as making it a one person assembly process.
Andrew



Andrew Davis VK1DA & VK2UH
Sent using Tapatalk

[VK2GOM]

Hi Andrew, many thanks for the info. Yes, it might be possible... however, it would need some sort of bearing support at perhaps the top of the washing line frame. I could soon knock up something to support a block bearing there, which would be about 5ft 6" from the ground.

However, since the pole is lashed directly to the side of the frame, it wouldn't allow enough space for the rotator at the bottom. I am guessing I would need the pole to be about 5" or so away from the edge of the washing line frame (ie. half the rotator diameter) to allow the rotator to sit right next to it (and then, itself bolted to something on the ground to stop it counter-rotating).

Still, it's definitely food for thought and I will investigate it. Although it would mean buying another rotator after I sold mine on VKClassifieds!

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH