What purpose does the extended tx serve

[VK3ALB]

Guys,

Get rid of the 27MHz and your FT101E will be fine. An FT101E is an amateur transceiver that can/does in some cases transmit on 27MHz which is not as far as I'm aware an amateur band anywhere in the world. There's probably an issue of type approval thrown in there somewhere too. Why would anyone want a 100W CB? We're all smart guys around here and it wouldn't take too much effort to pull the rock for that band. Your military boat anchor is not the same as an FT101E or Kenwood 520 - enjoy using it and enjoy your hobby.

Starting to dig a hole for the horse now.

[VK4WDM]

I suggest that the horse be cremated and the ashes scattered at sea. If you bury it somebody will dig it up!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK3AIF]

Is an "F" call allowed to remove the offending crystal from the standard, unmodified, as supplied FT101 or Uniden 2020 or whatever and would it then become a modified radio and said "F" call could no longer use it? Cars used to be sold without indicators, seatbelts or even airbags for that matter and they are still legal to use the last time I checked. There was no compulsion to earth all power points up to around the 1960's either and houses were not subject to a general recall when the wiring rules changed so has or can the legislation been made retrospective in this case?

However there are harsh penalties written into the legislation and if one was to wilfully or deliberately use a radio outside his/her frequency allocation this should be brought to bear, it is exactly the same as exceeding the power limits imposed or any other breach of the regulations for that matter. Every driver is capable of exceeding the speed limit or running a red light but in this country one was deemed to be innocent until proven guilty up to recent times but that perhaps is no longer the case?

If some person was to modify a radio so it could operate outside his band limits without good cause, for IF duties for example, that may be a little greyer and certainly foolhardy but should hardly be construed as intent. Once upon a time there had to be evidence of some wrong doing, has that gone by the way side?

[VK2LK]

Q: What purpose does the extended tx serve?

A: It gets you a visit from the ACMA Inspectors.

[VK2MUS]

Is an "F" call allowed to remove the offending crystal from the standard, unmodified, as supplied FT101 or Uniden 2020 or whatever and would it then become a modified radio and said "F" call could no longer use it?

the dog will never die with the wording of the regulations - The ft101e is a commercial unmodified radio and taking the wording of the regulations word for word it is an allowable radio for the Foundation class operator. If the Foundation class operator removes the crystal then firstly he is mod'ing the radio and secondly it is no longer a commercially manufactured radio as its specs have changed. So the foundation class operator is between hell and high water. If he operates it on 11m cb freqs then he is clearly outside his license. If a CB'er buys it and operates on the cb bands then he is clearly illegal.

In the case of the ft101e we will assume there was no intention to operate it on 11m CB freq's ( the radio covers also the allowable foundation bands) as to do so would be illegal under the license - in the case of the CB'er he could be assumed to have purchased it to operate on CB and probably above his power requirements - here I am assuming rightly or wrongly that CB'ers are more likely to breech the law then a Ham Radio operator. I would expect that the ACMA would give the benefit of doubt to the Amateur Radio operator.

In relation to the illegal hand held units simply ban the importing of them – chasing Radio hams that may have purchased one of these units is a bit specialized when it is clear that any one and his dog can purchase them off ebay

John

[VK2AAH]

Hi Richard,

Your mention of IF power levels is pertinent here. There is no standard specified for IF power (as far as I know, apart from spurious emissions), so until there is, I'll use whatever suits me. Typically I use less than a couple of watts with my microwave transverters (all of which require amateur band IFs, but I might choose a different IF in future equipment). Proper construction techniques and choices of frequency would see to it that my equipment would be very unlikely to cause interference to other services.

I'm reminded of the old Motorola Mocom UHF transceivers of the 1980's. These used a varactor tripler to produce about 10W at UHF. The varactor was driven by about 30W of power at VHF! Didn't seem to be a problem with the ACMA. My 2W tuneable IF pales by comparison.

Chas
VK3PY

Hi Chas,

I agree with you that possession in itself is not an issue- as long as there is good reason for it. Possession of a radio deliberately modified/programmed to transmit on an emergency service frequency is an entirely different matter. Your interpretation only applies to a radio manufactured for amateur radio purposes (ie not type approved) and with transmit capability on bands not permitted in Australia. In that case I think you are right...

On the other hand I don't agree with you on the issue of out of band IFs. There are standards applying to levels of spurious radiation- and your IF would be clearly "spurious". Our ACMA friends reading this can confirm this but from memory that is
-80dbc (though that is for "type approved" equipment). Once we stray outside of the amateur bands we don't make the rules so "whatever suits me" is inappropriate. But that is hypothetical & I'm sure your good construction techniques would protect other services from interference generated!

Cheers,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK1VMA]

It's probably important to point out here that 11 metres was an amateur band. That's why it came out on the FT101E.

The FT101E was introduced in 1975. In the United States, 11 metres was an amateur band up until the creation of the Citizens Band in 1976. There was also a brief period of less than 12 months in Australia where 11m was allocated to the amateur service, so this has nothing to do with CB operators, we're talking about an amateur transceiver that started out legal to own, that ceased to be legal because an amateur band it left the factory with was removed from the amateur service.

So what happens when we lose 420-430MHz permanently? Will radios able to cover the bottom 10MHz of 70cm, which will be allocated to emergency services LMR and already is in some locations, become illegal too?

I wrote to the WIA yesterday, I plan to publish their response here when they get back to me.

[VK3ALB]

Is an "F" call allowed to remove the offending crystal from the standard, unmodified, as supplied FT101 or Uniden 2020 or whatever and would it then become a modified radio and said "F" call could no longer use it?

Yes it's modified, but he could still use it at 10W.

the dog will never die with the wording of the regulations - The ft101e is a commercial unmodified radio and taking the wording of the regulations word for word it is an allowable radio for the Foundation class operator. If the Foundation class operator removes the crystal then firstly he is mod'ing the radio and secondly it is no longer a commercially manufactured radio as its specs have changed.

The LCD says commercially manufactured - there is no mention of modified or unmodified in the LCD.

In the case of the ft101e we will assume there was no intention to operate it on 11m CB freq's ( the radio covers also the allowable foundation bands) as to do so would be illegal under the license - in the case of the CB'er he could be assumed to have purchased it to operate on CB and probably above his power requirements - here I am assuming rightly or wrongly that CB'ers are more likely to breech the law then a Ham Radio operator. I would expect that the ACMA would give the benefit of doubt to the Amateur Radio operator.

If an RI turned up at my house and found a HF amateur radio with 11m capability he'd ask me to disable 11m.

In relation to the illegal hand held units simply ban the importing of them – chasing Radio hams that may have purchased one of these units is a bit specialized when it is clear that any one and his dog can purchase them off ebay

The radio is not illegal it's the way it's programmed that causes the ACMA concern. For example, the Baofeng UVR-5 handheld straight out the box can TX on 163MHz which is a Police frequency in VK3. Punch in the number and away you go. So, if you can do a simple action from the front of the radio to cause the radio to transmit on 163MHz then you'll have a problem no matter what your intention. The supplied software doesn't allow you to lock it to TX only on amateur frequencies yet you can download CHIRP and lock the radio for amateur frequencies and you're good to go.

[VK2GOM]

I wrote to the WIA yesterday, I plan to publish their response here when they get back to me.

I've set my reminder to check this topic again at the back end of 2014

Very valid points raked up in this discussion.

For what it's worth, I'd suggest the rules are unworkable and some re-clarification and rule-setting is needed.

In the same way I own a nice set of kitchen knives that are capable of killing multiple people, but I don't get busted just because I own them.

What happened about proof of 'intent'? ie. intent to operate outside the amateur bands. If proof of intent is now determined simply by ownership, then owning my kitchen knives must surely be intent to kill all my neighbours?

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2FRO]

No, then it becomes a modified set. However, in this scenario, an F call could give the FT101E to an S or A call, who would remove the 11mhz crystal, and then give the set back to the F call. In this case the set wouldn't really be modified; just made legal.

I spoke with the acma yesterday on the phone and advised that I'd disposed of the radio in question. I decided to have a go at fixing the problem myself, and in the process killed the radio

[VK2XSO]

So when am I buying your dead IC208 ?

[VK2FRO]

Well been a while since I originated this post, but in an effort to make my station fully legit again (having had a visit from the RI's concerning a no longer in existance ic208 and a rather powerful transmitter that could do 11m), I've made a few changes.

The handheld that they were going to confiscate due to being able to go anywhere got put under the drill press just to show I was willing to make amends to the issue. The radio went in the bin a day later.

The icom 208 I tried in vain to fix but the parts are just too small. Killed it during the attempt. I can apparently build a 2.45 kJ capacitor bank, but not fix an icom radio. Its probably in landfill now - a shame. I should have kept it as a test target for Boomer, the 2.45 kJ cap bank

So now I had no radios. Soon fixed that problem!

First off I looked at the chinese hand helds. Found out about the baofeng uv-5r and that it could be locked out of being able to tx out of band. So I bought one, downloaded chirp and awaited for its arrival. It only had OOB tx capabilities for about 10 minutes - after which it was programmed with chirp to only do the amateur bands for TX.

And as a christmas present I bought myself a yaesu FTM-350A/R. This one comes out of the box with tx inhibited on anything but the amateur bands. I also splurged on a 2m beam, and an antenna switch, basically finishing off the above 6m part of my station. I dont need the aprs features of this radio, but I do need the larger screen. And what an amazing radio it is! Bought the software for it too, and also my home brew cable works quite well, unlike my soldering efforts on the icom! The radio sits here beside me on a small table, and the head unit a few inches to the right of my computer monitor. Space below that has been reserved for the HF radio.


So the next thing to do is to get a hf radio. On the hf side of things I've been working from the antenna backwards. I've got the sirio up in the air (chook band antenna retuned to 10m), a 20m dipole and they are on a switch. This feeds into the SWR/PWR bridge of a Fox Delta digital swr meter, which will then be hooked to (insert name of amplifier here) and finally the radio itself - have decided to go with the TS-590S - they apparently have an excellent reciever in them. Of course the amplifier will be the last purchase, and only if I need it. Probably get the tokyo Hi Power HL450B

After the RI inspection a while ago I will NEVER buy, or posess a radio that is or can be easily made to TX outside where I am licensed to TX. The two radios that were destroyed came that way - and I explained this to the RI's whom visited; alas I slipped on another forum saying my new 200 watt 10m radio would be good for 11m dx as well - which is what gave them the fuel to come and pay me a visit.

The RI's asked where the 200 watt radio was. I told them it had been de-modified, and sold on ebay, and showed them the sale on my computer. That satisfied that one. I hope the poor chap who bought it didn't get grilled by them as well, as the radio was de-modified before being mailed out. This one too came from the states fully capable of 11m TX. I had just gotten lazy (it was very easy to un modify) and not de-modified it until it was sold.

So yep they have been inspecting a lot of stations, not just F-Calls, as I am a full call - just didnt realise it was an offence in merely OWNING a radio that could TX out of band easily (E.G. front panel, dip switch). Something that can do it via snipping a wire or diode is ok, so long as you dont snip the wire or diode.

[VK3AUU]

Mein Gott. The only one who really seems to have handle on this subject is Chas VK3PY. Even some of the RIs don't seem to know. We all own transceivers that can transmit outside the Australian allocated ham bands. They do this straight out of the box, they don't have to be modified to enable us to only transmit on the frequencies specified in the LCD. Owning them isn't illegal, it is only illegal if you Transmit outside the bands that is illegal and why would you want to do that if you are a licenced amateur.

Get Real

David
VK3AUU

[VK2AAH]

And the wheels go round and round... like this debate!

Merry Christmas- and just bear this season's thought in mind.... the radio inspectors right now are trying to enjoy Christmas with the thought of out of band radios out of their minds...

Cheers,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4WDM]

Hi David

Owning them isn't illegal,

It appears from the ACMA actions over the last year or so that they DO consider them to be illegal if they are capable of transmitting outside the ITU assigned AR bands.

They are not concerned about radios that are capable of transmitting on parts of the AR bands that are not allocated to VK's such as the upper end of the 80m band.

We have to make a clear distinction about those two situations.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2GOM]

...and thus comes up again the reason I left the WIA. I wrote to them on this very subject telling them it had implications for all radio amateurs in Australia until everyone was singing off the same hymn sheet, as far as interpretation of the law went by radio amateurs, the WIA, and the ACMA.

And they ignored me.

This is exactly as somebody mentioned the other day; owning a car capable of 250km/h that is parked in their garage, so perhaps they should have a speeding ticket now.

Utterly ridiculous, but at the same time, the same.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3ALB]

...and thus comes up again the reason I left the WIA. I wrote to them on this very subject telling them it had implications for all radio amateurs in Australia until everyone was singing off the same hymn sheet, as far as interpretation of the law went by radio amateurs, the WIA, and the ACMA.

And they ignored me.

This is exactly as somebody mentioned the other day; owning a car capable of 250km/h that is parked in their garage, so perhaps they should have a speeding ticket now.

Utterly ridiculous, but at the same time, the same.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

Wow Rob, that'll teach 'em!

Whilst it may be preferable to be singing from the same hymn sheet I note that the act has been in place for 20 years now and although the growth in AR may be slowing I doubt it has anything to do with the act. I think it's a shame you gave up your membership as it will have done very little to the interpretation of the act. My interpretation of the act is that possession equals intent and it seems the inspectors interpret it the same way. I'm happy to make sure all the diodes or links in my radios are in the right places because after all, it is "just a hobby". I'd rather have a cuppa with any RI that came to my door instead of arguing about interpretation of the law.

I'd still like to hear from any amateur that has been arrested, fined, taken to court or put in jail for having an "open" transmitter.

I think the only way to get this sorted is to challenge the interpretation in court. It won't be me because I've had too much Christmas cheer and I think I'm wedged in this chair for good.

[VK3BA]

My interpretation of the act is that possession equals intent and it seems the inspectors interpret it the same way.

I think the only way to get this sorted is to challenge the interpretation in court. It won't be me because I've had too much Christmas cheer and I think I'm wedged in this chair for good.

So does that mean my 600w PA for 2m is going to put me in jail even though I'll only ever run it at 400w ??

[VK4TI]

...and thus comes up again the reason I left the WIA. I wrote to them on this very subject telling them it had implications for all radio amateurs in Australia until everyone was singing off the same hymn sheet, as far as interpretation of the law went by radio amateurs, the WIA, and the ACMA.

And they ignored me.

This is exactly as somebody mentioned the other day; owning a car capable of 250km/h that is parked in their garage, so perhaps they should have a speeding ticket now.

Utterly ridiculous, but at the same time, the same.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

Gi'Day Rob , as you know the WIA oft moves slowly and a response can be at best far to long , resigning due to a fit of pique hurts us all and I hope you might reconsider , I have committed to rejoin the wia after an absence lasting several decades because the hobby is in trouble and making change means having access by voting from inside the representative body . I read some of these posts and wont repeat by response but it involves bovine byproduct , several of us are taking advise on interpretation and specific criteria regarding ownership of wide ability radios in the hands of licensed Amateurs , my belief currently is that if a person operates within the specifics of their permit there cannot be repercussions . I expect this will be resolved shortly and much of the rumormongering will be washed clean , your analogy seems fair and reasonable and I would be interested to see something in writing from more than an individual or more than the expression in writing of more than an individual interpretation to the contrary , after all I could easily build most anything I want outside the commercial situation cheaply and easily yet that items possession relies on my word as to actual operation as per the license criteria .
Here is to a speedy resolution based on fact
Regards
Barry

[VK2AAH]

After the RI inspection a while ago I will NEVER buy, or posess a radio that is or can be easily made to TX outside where I am licensed to TX. The two radios that were destroyed came that way - and I explained this to the RI's whom visited; alas I slipped on another forum saying my new 200 watt 10m radio would be good for 11m dx as well - which is what gave them the fuel to come and pay me a visit.

.

I don't want to play the radical... again but could I suggest that (1) you know that your comment brought the heat down on you, and (2) the real reason for the RI's visit was to discourage you from letting this radio fall into the wrong hands (in the event you had that thought in mind)?

If the answer is yes to either then what the heck have the ACMA done wrong? There are so many bush lawyers on here who clearly have experience debating these laws in the courts that they know better what the court's interpretation of the regulations is. This bush lawyer has a totally different point of view- that what the letter of the law says is one thing, what is a common sense interpretation can be different. Not one person here has ever produced an instance where enforcement action has come about due to radios being possessed that have factory standard, overseas amateur band allocations. The issue has always been to do with CB and other bands (on HF radios) and commercial/emergency service frequencies (primarily in UHF radios). In either case I would be stunned to hear any amateur condone that... so why do we keep carrying on with such phoney indignation over the ACMA doing its job? If hams want to do the wrong thing then bugger off to 27MHz freeband from whence they probably came.

Cheers,

Richard
VK2AAH