any working EME

[VK2FAK]

Hi all..

Wonder if EME was worked by anyone this weekend....jst a curious question.

If so what band was used...

John

[VK3DXE]

There were several VK's, including myself, on 2m although conditions were pretty ordinary with lots of QSB.

I didn't work anybody as I'm currently tweaking my system and also tend to chase new ones, but had decodes from a few. Conditions were pretty ordinary on top of my local noise issues. Faraday seemed to be a bit of a problem and there was deep QSB with some signals coming up to audible levels for a couple of seconds at times, but then diving back into the noise.

Franco I2FAK was on the VKLogger again as he is quite often, looking for VK's, particularly newcomers. I even had trouble with Franco's signal at times this weekend.

Those I recall seeing over the weekend:

VK3DXE ( )
VK3AXH
VK5APN
VK5FA (?)
VK4UH
VK4CDI
ZL4PLM

Probably a few others, but it's hard to remember what happened at 2am.

[VK2DVZ]

On 23cm JT65C worked AL7RT. Saw Dan at -18, -19, -27, nil decode, back to -27db again, some at -28 also, so big swings with QSB early on then quite weak signal.
Finally gave him best at -25ddB. Dan said he is new to JT65, but it took us from 0727 to 0755utc to complete, mainly due to incorrect messages being sent, but was not easy at all even though Dan supposedly runs a 12' dish and high power. Not sure about his station details...

Also worked JA6AHB on 23cm - no effort - but Toshio's computer went belly up during the contact.

[VK2FAK]

Hi all..

Well that is a surprise...I knew that many had tried the EME here in Australia, but did not know there was the numbers mentioned in an earlier post that still continue with it....

Now , why is it that 70cm EME seems to be jumped over ....or not as active as other Freq. is there a Tech. reason or just an interest reason..?

Interested to know what software you guys are using...on the moon tracking side..

John

[VK2JDS]

Yes, there is a healthy number of EME stations. But we have lost a stationary mobile 23cm EME station.
Bob VK2ABP/VK0BP passed away recently.

However Mark vk2ams, Brett vk2cdi, Phil vk4cdi and myself are always on 23cm working the world. Overseas they think VK is great DX so we are always in demand.
23cm is the first microwave band and with good reason to separate it from the likes of 70cm and 2m. the noise floor is just so much lower!
Moon echos are visible on the jt65c spectrum waterfall on 23cm with a dish and modest power, and audible on my system as i whistle into the microphone.

i hope you get interested, if you need any help please ask

73 de Dave vk2jds

[VK4GHZ]

Have always had an interest in EME simmering away in the background, and 2m requires too much aluminium in the air to be viable in a suburban lot.

What is a realistic minimal setup for 23cm, to make real contacts?
ie; CW, none of this JT keyboard to keyboard stuff... have the internet for that.

Say, 100W and 4 x M2 35 element yagis.
Or is more grunt and a bay of eight required?

Or what about a 1.2m dish, or 2.4m, or what size?

[VK3DXE]

Have always had an interest in EME simmering away in the background, and 2m requires too much aluminium in the air to be viable in a suburban lot.

There are enough BIG stations on 2m these days to quite easily work quite a bit of EME with a single smallish yagi on 2m. My best (JT65B) is a partial, almost completed contact with I2FAK, running just 50w to a little 6el yagi with 15m of RG58 which was the only coax run I had in reach with an N connector. I heard a number of other smaller stations with that antenna too. So EME is now something that most reasonably equipped 2m stations can manage at least a little bit of. There's plenty of info if you Google it and plenty of people with lots of knowledge here. Like it or not, the activity is on digital modes.

With the current setup (10el LFA with az/el), I've also had enough decodes from another single yagi station in Europe to have completed a contact if he wasn't working somebody else at the time. Even more impressive was that he was running only 250w, but there is enough software available to estimate when you might get a peak in ground gain at both ends of the path to enable such contacts. The rest comes down to good operating, lots of patience and a big dash of luck. There's one Belgian(?) who's almost completed DXCC on 2m with a single yagi, probably has by now.

I do quite a bit of listening and watching, so I have a pretty good mental map of where my best ground gain lobes are for a given azimuth - terrain in the far field varies considerably across the arc in which the moon rises and sets depending on declination above or below the celestial equator. As a result, I have a pretty good idea of what size stations I can work at a given azimuth and elevation and I'm reasonably familiar with the receive capabilities of most of the regulars on the moon.

Wayne VK5APN has had a number of CW contacts with his 2 x 10el yagis, but despite numerous requests to others when signals are strong enough, there just isn't the activity on CW, nor the ability or interest. The times are a changin'.

If you want a challenge, then do what I do and do it with a single yagi. You really need to pay attention to detail, use a MODERN, LOW NOISE yagi design, as short a run of good quality, low loss coax as possible and a reasonable preamp. A lot of the bigger guys chase the challenge of trying to work the smallest stations possible. Have a look at HB9Q's web page and you'll see a pic of a guy using a (from memory) 3el Yagi on a small tripod.

I get a little annoyed at the anti-JT65 thing. 2m is now noisier in the cities than it ever was, yet JT65 has opened up a whole new world of VHF+ DX to a lot more people, especially if you can manage to elevate your antenna. Wait till you get a pileup of eager Europeans on the moon wanting the challenge of working your little single yagi station for a new square and the come back and tell me JT65 is crap.

I wrote up a thread on another forum, detailing the process of building my current station, mainly to make people aware of what is doable with a modest station for a modest outlay, spark some interest (which it has) and to try to pull people out of the FM and repeaters mentality.

I find a little astounding that that anybody would go out and buy something like an IC-910 or IC-9100 just for FM and repeater work, but apparently people do. The WSJT suite has given us all an opportunity to open the eyes of some of those people.

The challenges for the higher bands are different to some of those on 2m, higher path loss, higher feed line loss, more difficult and/or expensive to generate decent power and, because of the higher gain antennas, more difficulty keeping them pointed where they should be. The important thing to remember is that no matter how you do it, and whatever band you do it on, it remains a challenge worthy of some respect for those who actually give it a shot. I'd love to give 10m and even 15m a shot one day. Google it, it is doable.

[ZL4PLM]

Have always had an interest in EME simmering away in the background, and 2m requires too much aluminium in the air to be viable in a suburban lot.

There are enough BIG stations on 2m these days to quite easily work quite a bit of EME with a single smallish yagi on 2m. My best (JT65B) is a partial, almost completed contact with I2FAK, running just 50w to a little 6el yagi with 15m of RG58 which was the only coax run I had in reach with an N connector. I heard a number of other smaller stations with that antenna too. So EME is now something that most reasonably equipped 2m stations can manage at least a little bit of. There's plenty of info if you Google it and plenty of people with lots of knowledge here. Like it or not, the activity is on digital modes.


I get a little annoyed at the anti-JT65 thing. 2m is now noisier in the cities than it ever was, yet JT65 has opened up a whole new world of VHF+ DX to a lot more people, especially if you can manage to elevate your antenna. Wait till you get a pileup of eager Europeans on the moon wanting the challenge of working your little single yagi station for a new square and the come back and tell me JT65 is crap.

I wrote up a thread on another forum, detailing the process of building my current station, mainly to make people aware of what is doable with a modest station for a modest outlay, spark some interest (which it has) and to try to pull people out of the FM and repeaters mentality.

I find a little astounding that that anybody would go out and buy something like an IC-910 or IC-9100 just for FM and repeater work, but apparently people do. The WSJT suite has given us all an opportunity to open the eyes of some of those people.

Also same here

I run 4 X 12 ele at 25m AGL and 1KW 0.3 db preamp and IC9100

Smallest stations that have decoded me are single 7 ele yagis no preamp and my smallest station worked to date was a single 9 ele and 150w

without a doubt you can work the big guns on a small station on 144 with not too much power

I've worked multiple yagi stations (4 x 9) with only 80w

Just needs some patience to find the right days and time - if you dont have elevation ... no sweat - work last hour of moonset and first hour of moonrise and you're away - prob make some ground gain too if you antenna is up high enough.

Look for low degradation and days where the sun - moon are not close - find a day with low Kp numbers so its not too geomagnetically disturbed and look on moonrise or moonset around 144.100 - 144.200

better still - get onto the EME logger and look for some of the big guys like W5UN I2FAK and some of the russians

Yes - ON7EH - you are thinking of nearly has DXCC with a single 12 ele and 300w

JT65 is a def advantage - if you want to do CW at 144 then you will need something a bit more upmarket - but still some big guns around to work too - my findings are that CW qso's are relatively few.

A good time to get on is the contests or when some dxpedition is on - the bands full of stations then

23cms - I think alot of people are using 2.4 - 3.7m dishes successfully even with low power - and it does not suffer some of the noise issues that 144 does

But if you have a single or multi yagi system for terrestrial work then give it a go on EME even without elevation

EME is a fun mode - can be frustrating at times but the results are worth the effort

See you off the moon

73 Simon ZL4PLM

[VK2GOM]

The only thing I'd add, Adam, if you wanted to go the 23cm route is go circular polarisation. Linear with Yagi's is subject to too much fading and fiddling to resolve it.

Google the OK1DFC septum feed for a read on how to build one.

I have most parts here for 23cm EME bar a dish! That is the stumbling block. Can't fit it in my back yard, and going portable with a reasonable sized dish presents many problems.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK7XX]

(partial)


If you want a challenge, then do what I do and do it with a single yagi.

I have an 8 element quad for 2m and the same for 70 cm with about 150watts on 2m & 60 or so on 70cm. No elevation control.... Do you think that this would be worth me having a go at eme ??

I get a little annoyed at the anti-JT65 thing. 2m is now noisier in the cities than it ever was, yet JT65 has opened up a whole new world of VHF+ DX to a lot more people, especially if you can manage to elevate your antenna. Wait till you get a pileup of eager Europeans on the moon wanting the challenge of working your little single yagi station for a new square and the come back and tell me JT65 is crap.

I agree with you Alan, and as it so happens, JT65 is my most favourite mode. To date, I have had just over 2980 contacts on that mode, with over 100 countries worked.. Yep, just on JT65. Mind you, this is mainly on HF. I have done little JT on 6m 2m or 70cm. As I said, it's my most favourite mode.

[VK2JDS]

on 23cm a 2.5m dish is the minimum fed with a OK1DFC septum. using a 910h without an amplifier, you will be able to work anyone with a 5 metre dish or bigger using JT65C.
add a 50 watt amp and you will work stations with 4 metre dishes. 120 watts into a 3 metre dish is good and will get you some CW contacts with the bigger guns.

5 metres and 130 watts is great, I hang around 020 and work CW here and there during the contests, my cw receive isnt good and there is a lot of fluttery fading on the signals (libration)

Adam, i would suggest in a suburban back yard you will get away with a 3m or 3.7m black mesh dish (ex Cband satellite television), septum, 23cm 100watt brick amplifier mounted at the feedpoint or on the back of the dish with a short cable to the septum tx port, G4DDK LNA, manual aiming and a 910h. It will give you CW contacts and lots of JT65C. and will be a lot of fun!

73 from Dave vk2jds

[VK3DXE]

(partial)


If you want a challenge, then do what I do and do it with a single yagi.

I have an 8 element quad for 2m and the same for 70 cm with about 150watts on 2m & 60 or so on 70cm. No elevation control.... Do you think that this would be worth me having a go at eme ??

I get a little annoyed at the anti-JT65 thing. 2m is now noisier in the cities than it ever was, yet JT65 has opened up a whole new world of VHF+ DX to a lot more people, especially if you can manage to elevate your antenna. Wait till you get a pileup of eager Europeans on the moon wanting the challenge of working your little single yagi station for a new square and the come back and tell me JT65 is crap.

I agree with you Alan, and as it so happens, JT65 is my most favourite mode. To date, I have had just over 2980 contacts on that mode, with over 100 countries worked.. Yep, just on JT65. Mind you, this is mainly on HF. I have done little JT on 6m 2m or 70cm. As I said, it's my most favourite mode.

G'day John, depending on the sidelobe performance of your quad, AND your local noise environment, you should expect to be able to see some of the big guns with your quad. I presume you run some sort of low noise preamp? With 150w and around 10dBd antenna gain, you should expect a number of people to hear your signal, even if you can't hear them due to noise/poor receive system performance. The key is patience. There have been times when nobody here in VK is hearing the Europeans, even though they're hearing us

I'd advise doing a bit of listening in order to get some idea of the ground gain lobes at your location with that antenna. With no elevation, you can expect to see big variations in signal strength as the moon passes through these, being unaware of this puts a lot of people off and they give up, as they often aren't aware of how it works.

This is the free space pattern elevation of my antenna:



But more importantly, this is the pattern at 10m agl:



As you can see, there are peaks and deep nulls, depending on angle above the horizon. The trick is to familiarise yourself where your peaks are and try to time your calling for the peaks.

I use this site to keep up with moon rise and set times: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/a ... l=-1&day=1 The link is for your location in Launceston, but others can select their own location.

I use this one for watching degradation figures. If degradation is lower than about 3.5dB, then you have a better chance of hearing something, although there tends to be a little more activity from Europe when the declination (moon position in relation to the celestial equator) is higher = further north. http://www.mmmonvhf.de/eme.php

If you scroll down on the mmmonvhf page, you'll also see an automated list of who's calling CQ, and where. LiveCQ ( http://www.livecq.eu/ ) is also very handy, both to see where to look AND to get a bit of an idea of how well others are hearing a station calling CQ. These two sites also help you to avoid accidentally calling CQ on another station's frequency.

Keep an eye on the JT65 logger to see who's active and to get a better idea of operating procedures/protocols: http://www.chris.org/cgi-bin/jt65emeA

[VK5APN]

Beware of the Limbo Dancer - How low can you go

http://www.g4dcv.co.uk/dfeme.htm

or another eg

VE1SKY 160w to a KMA 4113 Log Periodic
http://www.qrz.com/db/VE1SKY

You do NOT need alot of ally or power to have fun.

17 initials on 2m CW. Hey they are all BIG guns.

One of the stronger ones that I have worked on CW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxTbfutE3Sc

You are always wanting to improve the station etc.

Have fun

Wayne

[VK2DVZ]

You do NOT need alot of ally or power to have fun.

17 initials on 2m CW. Hey they are all BIG guns.

Correct!

Power is not necessary to work the Big Boys. They are always on the lookout for new and/or low power stations....and yes it is a real thrill to make your first (or any) EME contact on any band.

I worked RT4I, a big station in Russia on 2m EME back on 19-02-2011 using JT65B while running 50 watts (half power setting on IC-910) using my 4x10 element horizontal yagis and NO preamp at that time. Igor was decoded at -23dB and I received -20db from him. Igor did ask me on the EME logger: http://www.chris.org/cgi-bin/jt65emeA if my amplifier was broken. No, said I, just trying with 50watts! The results speak for themselves.

Using my 2.4m dish, I have worked about 30 station on 23cm EME while running with about 30-35 watts at the feed...no problem at all at that power level. I now run with 120w at the feed on 23cm EME, resulting in smaller stations being able to work me.

Speaking of watts, 120 watts at the antenna is all one is allowed under our regulations on CW or JT modes, unless you hold a 'Variation to License' as approved by the ACMA. I found the process of applying for and obtaining a variation to my license for the 2m band was not all that difficult. (Every application to the ACMA is unique, so you will have to do your own research and calculations to suit your own situation, should you choose to do so).

Listening for EME signals on moon-rise and at moon-set is a great training aide for the would-be EME operator. It is also where ground gain comes into play that often makes copying otherwise weaker stations easier than at higher elevations. No elevation is needed - the ground gain is working in your favour - GO FOR IT.. EME is FUN!!

[VK4CDI]

GD
I started off with a single 10-El yagi 3Mx high, no external preamp, and 150W brick in the shack.....worked 20 or so big guns...trouble was I got hooked...needed more antenna, more power, external preamp....but even that wasn't enough, so started on 432 with 4 x 22 and 100W no preamp, and worked a dozen big guns.....Same deal, now 4 x28, very low NF preamp, more power etc.....
Now also a 3.6Mx dish for 23cm and 9cm.......EME conference every two years......

Moonbouncers Anonymous anyone?

Phil VK4CDI

[VK3BJM]

Moonbouncers Anonymous anyone?

Not sure a self-help group would be of any use, Phil; I think once the bug has bitten, it's incurable...

73,
Barry
VK3BJM

Nearly finished adding elevation to my 2 m 4x 14 el - adding elevation to my 70 cm 4x 28 el to follow... Where the hell am I going to site the dish for 23...

[VK1JA]

Really interesting reading guys, eme is something I'd love to try in the future, either 6m, 2m or 70cm.

One problem I have at my QTH is the noise floor on 2m with the pre amp on sits at around s6 !! 6m is usually around s1 (no pre amp) and 70cm is about a s2 with the pre amp on.

What noise floor on 2m (and 6m and 70cm as well) are you guys putting up with?

I'm wondering is 2m for me is even worth a try with such a high noise floor.

[VK2AMS]

I must admit EME is the most addictive facet of AR i have ever done , it is a real buzz but your right the need to improve is exponential! bigger dish, lower NF lna better tracking, more power the list goes on , I would also like to thank ross vk2dvz , dave vk2jds and phil vk4cdi for all there help and instruction as it has made my transition into eme so much easier! THANKS GUYS!.
cheers mark VK2AMS
see you off the moon

[VK3DXE]

Really interesting reading guys, eme is something I'd love to try in the future, either 6m, 2m or 70cm.

One problem I have at my QTH is the noise floor on 2m with the pre amp on sits at around s6 !! 6m is usually around s1 (no pre amp) and 70cm is about a s2 with the pre amp on.

What noise floor on 2m (and 6m and 70cm as well) are you guys putting up with?

I'm wondering is 2m for me is even worth a try with such a high noise floor.

Is that S6 in all directions? What antenna design are you currently using?

On moonrise I have up to S9 at the horizon, but that drops off rapidly above 30deg above the horizon. I think that's part of the reason there are so many Europeans on the moon, but none of the regulars are running dated yagi designs.

How much gain do you have from your preamp? Have you tried a different one? Could be simple front end overload. What's your noise floor without the preamp? Do you have DSP? Without the DSP in the IC-7000 I probably wouldn't hear much here either.

[ZL4PLM]

Moonbouncers Anonymous anyone?

Phil VK4CDI

My name is simon and I have a serious addiction !!!