DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote

[VK3MIX]

Hi Glen

How many dollars for a dmr repeater?

Sorry, I have been out.

Between 4 and 5 thousand.

Depends on whether your dealer offers the Motorola diacount for not for profit organisations.

Now, BEFORE you descend upon this thread righteously proclaiming that it is too expensive, let me preempt your arguments.

We are talking about commercial equipment. That is a good price for a commercial repeater.

DMR offers a seamless, end to end professionally engineered network.

There are a number of manufacturers offering DMR equipment, which ranges from 200 dollars up. Much cheaper than Icom (or Yaesu).

What users want is a reliable, robust, simple to use network.

Yes, DMR has capital costs up front. But for that you get reliability and stability for many years.

Do we want to encourage activity?

Do we want to be savvy technologists or merely amateurish?

73
Glenn

Yes its expensive where it limits us country folk who would like to get on the DMR band wagon but the out laying cost for the initial setup is not justifiable for the very few amateurs in the area. For the city folk, its easier to get more operators interested in such technology to put some $$$ towards the cost. DSTAR hotspots are cost effective for individuals or the couple/few in a particular area. We have a ICOM repeater in our area but its switched off because we no longer have and/or can justify the cost to purchase cavities to continue it's operation. Instead a hotspot in it's place is doing the job for the one or two who use it regularly. Maybe in the future DMR hotspots might come about to allow easier access to such technology/network.

[VK2AAH]

But why are there so few amateurs using the repeaters in the country? Because there is no one to speak to. That is the whole point of networking...

This further illustrates the gap between the defeatist attitude of many hams and those who are trying to drive the hobby forward. Forget digital ARs and whether you are a senile big mouth in Adam's view- this is the type of technology we need to change the situation and to get people using 2m and 70cm. This is one way to convert license holders into active amateurs...

$4-5000 for a DMR repeater? Sure makes the price of a new TB9100 look very expensive...

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4BQ]

Richard

Whats a p25 enabled TB9100 going to cost me?

[VK4DU]

An analogue TB8100 runs to around 8000 (from memory)....

I'm guessing that a 9100 would be at least 9 or 10.

[VK4TI]

"VK4DU"An analogue TB8100 runs to around 8000 (from memory)....

I'm guessing that a 9100 would be at least 9 or 10 .""

7500 us roughly from the price list I have

[ZL3RC]

Interesting that 51% aren't interested in digital modes on all on vhf/uhf….humm I thought we where a progressive group of experimenters, maybe not.

I wonder now many of this 51% use WSJT and look at what that has done to EME. Different maybe but still a "Digital Mode".
Oh dear lets all get out our straight keys and drift backwards into oblivion.

[VK2AAH]

Richard

Whats a p25 enabled TB9100 going to cost me?

$10K+

[VK3AUU]

Why do you need repeaters of any sort. Most of the current ones sit there unused 99 percent of the time. Just build decent antennas instead of the pieces of wet string .
David

[VK2AAH]

That is an entirely different subject... but if you don't think repeaters are needed (at all) and think that better antennas will solve all coverage issues then (a) the world must be flat, and (b) there must be no such thing as terrain obstruction or path loss either. Not even you greatest home brew antenna can defeat the laws of physics.

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3AUU]

I am well aware of that. I live in a hole in the ground, but I still manage to work ssb to VK1,2,3,5 and 7 stations when conditions are right, and some quite regularly. I only live on an average size block in the town.
David

[VK2AAH]

Well good for you David...

Richard

[VK2AVR]

Interesting that 51% aren't interested in digital modes on all on vhf/uhf….humm I thought we where a progressive group of experimenters, maybe not.

I wonder now many of this 51% use WSJT and look at what that has done to EME. Different maybe but still a "Digital Mode".
Oh dear lets all get out our straight keys and drift backwards into oblivion.

The poll would be more appropriately worded "not interested in digital voice modes".

I'm interested in digital data modes, sure. On any band. I don't really see the attraction of DSTAR/C4FM/etc. But I help maintain DSTAR equipment because I realise that other people find it interesting.

Why do you need repeaters of any sort. Most of the current ones sit there unused 99 percent of the time. Just build decent antennas instead of the pieces of wet string .
David

AR is a wide hobby. Just because it doesn't interest you, doesn't mean it's not interesting. Many people like to operate mobile, and VHF/UHF repeater model works well for that. It simplifies the equipment required in a car, and not all of us want to have an autotune HF whip sprouting like a tumour from one corner of the car. Repeaters are also great for regional comms, without a constant hash of background noise.

Open ye minds, people!

[VK4BQ]

I have been reading about this idea of talk groups on DMR. So if we have an all singing all dancing DMR repeater connected to the internet how do I link and unlink from different reflectors? do DMR talk groups work like irlp? Can I link and unlink as I choose or am I fixed to talk groups setup on that repeater only?

[VK4DU]

There are no "reflectors", per se.

Well, not in the sense of IRLP.

The Australian DMR repeaters are connected as follows:

Slot 1

TG 1 - world wide calling (2 min max) - every DMR repeater, worldwide.
TG13 - English WW - all repeaters in English speaking countries - no time limitation.

Slot 2

TG 5 - VK/ZL - all Aussie and Kiwi repeaters - currently 16.


Both slots can run simultaneously.

Connections are determined by the configuration of the bridge in each country.

Countries with lots of repeaters tend to divide slot 2 into further regional talk groups, and the UK have implemented a scheme whereby you can effectively connect specific repeater to specific repeater directly.

As the VK and ZL traffic picks up, we will probably configure a couple of VK and ZL specific TGs on slot 2.

73
Glenn

[VK4BQ]

so are talk groups just like choosing a different channel on the radio? with the 2 min max is that two minute overs each side or I can talk to a total of two minutes then I am locked out? As a club how do we go about getting 2nd hand gear (can't see much 2nd online)? if we buy new who can quote for a DMR repeater? is there someone that sells to radio clubs in Australia or would we need to approach a local commercial dealer for support and pricing?

[VK4DU]

so are talk groups just like choosing a different channel on the radio?

with the 2 min max is that two minute overs each side or I can talk to a total of two minutes then I am locked out?

As a club how do we go about getting 2nd hand gear (can't see much 2nd online)?

if we buy new who can quote for a DMR repeater? is there someone that sells to radio clubs in Australia or would we need to approach a local commercial dealer for support and pricing?

Yes, talk groups are programmed and scanned as separate channels on the radio.

The 2 min max on WW calling is a gentlemans agreement only.

There is second hand stuff around - have a look on ebay and/or speak to a dealer.

Have a chat with your local Motorola dealer - Motorola offer discounts for community service and not-for-profit groups.

73
Glenn

[VK3MV]

In my humble opinion the question is like comparing apples and oranges - all the digital voice modes have +'s and -'s. A good staring point is comparing each style of mode is to have a look at this presentation on amateur voice modes; http://arvideonews.com/hrn/HRN_Episode_0195.html

Bruce Perens K6BP, project called "White Box" is where amateur radio digital voice modes will go - SDR RX/TX hardware with open source software to use any existing digital mode and those of the future we have not heard of yet. An interesting talk: http://arvideonews.com/hrn/HRN_Episode_0194.html

Peter
VK3MV

[VK2AAH]

Whatever rocks your boat... if you want to play DSTAR then go for it...

But I'm sorry if you think DSTAR is the future of Ham radio because it has all the hallmarks of being a Betacam all over again. Whether you like it or not AR is significantly influenced by developments in the commercial radio industry. It is a matter of pure economics- any purely AR "standard" is going to be lumbered by low volume sales & tight assed consumers... a sure recipe for a product that will have little investment $ spent on it.

On the other hand DMR is having a huge amount of investment spent on it- and there is so much potential for hams to build on this. The volume of DMR gear being sold today is mind blowing.

And I just bought a very nice TYT DMR handheld for $179US... now tell me what DSTAR gear can you get for that? Answer: none. And that radio is compatible with MARC... so I can take that around the world, load a standard codeplug as I go... and do things that DSTAR simply can't. In generations to come hams interested in DMR will have access to large quantities of quality gear as it gets retired and replaced. That will never happen with DSTAR...

But each to his/her own... but I'm not going to waste my time on another Betacam debacle... I still have my Sony C5 to remind me of that mistake!

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2CSW]

Quote content deleted at quoted members request

All well and good Jeremy and more power to you.

But I can't get the Minister for War and Finance to process the application for a DSTAR (Read Icom) radio. However, I might just get away with a $200 radio out of China to have a play on DMR (http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?cat ... +DMR+radio as an example).

It comes down to horses for courses, I would also like a Gibson Les Paul Goldtop guitar, at around $5K or more it is unlikely to happen - so a kit version made in China with a few mods for sub $500 will allow me to have the fun of building it and then having the fun of playing it.

Will it be as good? Probably not, but then at some point while playing it I'll catch my reflection in a window or mirror - it will look the part and I will feel good about it.

Who cares that the sound isn't perfect? Or if has fewer connection points etc etc, if I can afford to get it and I can afford to use it, then isn't that good for AR in general?

[VK2AAH]

"Default to the commercial radio market" eh?

What sanctimonious twaddle.

No. That is just plain BS. Amateurs are supposed to be curious, wanting to learn, and given I spend much of my life around P25 I want to learn what the next big thing in radio is all about. Whether you want to look down your hobbyist nose at DMR or not, the fact is that globally DMR is making a massive impact not just in commercial radio, but in humble little ol' amateur radio too. Now, you might be someone who wants to learn more about what may soon be amateur radio's version of Latin, but I want my skills to be relevant... not just something to reminisce about at a meeting of old radio fossils...

DMR is showing every sign of being the next big thing in digital radio globally. That's a fact, not my opinion, but based on the sheer investment $s being spent on it. That should be enough to spark the curiosity of most open minded, future thinking amateurs...

And being able to buy a very good, even if it is Chinese, 1000 channel, multi-mode, 5W, 400-480MHz handheld for $179US is a bonus... what competition does to price.


Richard
VK2AAH