DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote

[VK4BQ]

Where are the 3rd party hardware devices for C4FM? can I build a modem for C4FM and make my own repeater? Can I experiment with linux and the raspberry pi with the C4FM system? I already know the answers and DSTAR is great for younger hams like myself. We can learn a lot about radios, digital voice, and networking by experimenting with our homebrew DSTAR systems.

[VK2AAH]

This is a fairly old topic and I don't think the question is of any value now. Both DMR and P25 have taken off and both lend themselves to networking. The Yaesu approach, in my view, is junk targeted at amateurs who just want to be different on the cheap. C4FM without a vo-coder is junk... if you don't understand what the vo-coder does and its importance to optimising range and audio quality then you need to do some reading...

The DMR based MARC network is now a global network and offers amateurs a very powerful digital platform. Radios are very cheap (under $200) but offer very high quality comma. In some ways I hope D-Star and Fusion will just die and DMR and P25 become the amateur "standards".

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3MIX]

The DMR based MARC network is now a global network and offers amateurs a very powerful digital platform. Radios are very cheap (under $200) but offer very high quality comma. In some ways I hope D-Star and Fusion will just die and DMR and P25 become the amateur "standards".

I was interested in the DMR based MARC network until it requires a rather expensive repeater to run it - our user base in regional areas will be minimal and cannot come to terms to folk out money for such system. However the best thing with DSTAR over the last few years is we can build our own hotspots or repeaters for cheap.

[VK4DU]

Richard is spot on.

DMR/P25 are the future.

DMR repeaters are not that expensive. Yes, you have to use a specific type, but the benefit is seamless end to end networking.

[VK2AAH]

The interesting thing is to look at the MARC coverage throughout the US- clearly many clubs in the US have gone this way. I realise clubs here want to hang onto the boat anchors but this is an investment in the future... rather than something that is AR specific going with a technology that is expanding throughout the world in huge numbers makes a lot more sense to me. I guess some clubs would prefer to have a D-Star sitting there listening to the crickets instead of a global network that will generate radio traffic that might actually stir up some interest.

Cheers


Richard

[VK4DU]

Yep - it is all very simple.

I had my brand new DMR repeater on the network literally in about 3 minutes today. Plug it into the router, enter the IP settings, bingo.

Just had a QSO with a G on the WW talkgroup, and have been watching W's, I's, PH's and ZLs merrily chatting all afternoon..another G in London is calling CQ now, and being answered by a HB9.

Chatted with Matt 2DAG mobile in Sydney and Jeff in Auckland on the VK/ZL talkgroup.

Brilliant.

And, you can use the roam (voting) function to automatically switch between repeaters - no more manually changing channels...the system does it for you..

[VK3VIM]

So where does one find out more about DMR in Australia, such as where to purchase radios (? eBay) and more to the point programming? I'm interested in DMR and have read about the U.S. Network but can't find much about VK.

Cheers Grant


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[VK4DU]

So where does one find out more about DMR in Australia, such as where to purchase radios (? eBay) and more to the point programming? I'm interested in DMR and have read about the U.S. Network but can't find much about VK.

Cheers Grant


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Hello Grant

The Aussie repeaters are shown on the DMR MARC web page. Go to the repeaters page, and you can see the map.

73
Glenn

[VK4BQ]

So how much is a p25 or dmr repeater with an ethernet port ready to go going to cost me in australia?

[VK4DU]

So where does one find out more about DMR in Australia, such as where to purchase radios (? eBay) and more to the point programming? I'm interested in DMR and have read about the U.S. Network but can't find much about VK.

Cheers Grant


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Here are the links, Grant:

http://www.dmr-marc.net/repeaters.html

Info:

http://www.dmr-marc.net/media/Amateur_R ... to_DMR.pdf

[VK3VIM]

Thanks for the feedback, some reading for the weekend. So where are people sourcing DMR radios from and getting them programmed? I have joined the DMR Facebook buy and sell group, is there a local VK source?

Thanks Grant

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[VK4DU]

Hello Grant

Most people buy the CS700 (the economical model, which works very well) via eBay.

There are also lots of other DMR radios available there as well.

73
Glenn

[VK3VIM]

Thanks Glenn,

I'll do some research over the weekend. I appreciate your help.


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[VK2LK]

Yaesu's "C4FM" protocol uses the exact same DVSI AMBE2+ codec that is used in P25 phase 2. It's a very solid and well proven codec, with excellent forward error correction algorithms.

[VK4BQ]

Hi Matt

it may use the same ambe2+ codec as p25 but yaesu have locked it down to yaesu radios only.

[VK4DU]

...and that's the problem.

Another proprietary format like D-Star....

[VK2LK]

Well, kind of - that's just the framing of the protocol - which is actually the open source part of Fusion. Yaesu have a freely downloadable PDF that explains where the AMBE2+ bits are stuffed into the Yaesu Fusion/C4FM frames. It's just a matter of re-shuffling the bits and you could easily transcode between Yaesu and P25 Phase 2...

There's nothing stopping someone from building a Fusion compatible software radio stack - it's hardly "locked down"

In any case my post was a response to Richards' post that stated that it's C4FM without a vocoder.

[VK2AAH]

Thanks Matt for correcting me.

I still don't see any merit in the Fusion approach. Where is the Yaesu approach going? It has no hope of ever achieving acceptance when it is only being marketed to Amateurs. It offers nothing that either DMR or P25 can already do, yet both of those offer hobbyists the potential to explore greater opportunities to explore what digital radio and networking can achieve.

Regards


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4BQ]

Hi Glen

How many dollars for a dmr repeater?

[VK4DU]

Hi Glen

How many dollars for a dmr repeater?

Sorry, I have been out.

Between 4 and 5 thousand.

Depends on whether your dealer offers the Motorola diacount for not for profit organisations.

Now, BEFORE you descend upon this thread righteously proclaiming that it is too expensive, let me preempt your arguments.

We are talking about commercial equipment. That is a good price for a commercial repeater.

DMR offers a seamless, end to end professionally engineered network.

There are a number of manufacturers offering DMR equipment, which ranges from 200 dollars up. Much cheaper than Icom (or Yaesu).

What users want is a reliable, robust, simple to use network.

Yes, DMR has capital costs up front. But for that you get reliability and stability for many years.

Do we want to encourage activity?

Do we want to be savvy technologists or merely amateurish?

73
Glenn