Yaesu are now pushing their C4FM FDMA digital mode.
Will this overtake DStar?
What are your thoughts? (And don't forget to vote!)
73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH
DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
I can't understand Yaesu's thinking.
Now, if soneone releases a piece of amateur gear (in particular a dualbander) with Dstar and P25, that might be a winner.
Now, if soneone releases a piece of amateur gear (in particular a dualbander) with Dstar and P25, that might be a winner.
Damien VK3RX
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
I haven't seen any specifications for the mode so it would be impossible to make an informed decision at this stage but with the contempt Yaesu has shown to the VK market they might well be flogging a dead horse?
A few questions that need answering:-
It is compatible with anything else?
What infrastructure does it need?
Who's going to pay for it?
Who's going to support it?
What can it do that we can't live without?
A few questions that need answering:-
It is compatible with anything else?
What infrastructure does it need?
Who's going to pay for it?
Who's going to support it?
What can it do that we can't live without?
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VK2GOM
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Some background on the Yaesu system:
http://www.yaesu.com/downloadFile.cfm?F ... cation/pdf
7.1MB, but an interesting read. Some pokes at Icom's DStar in there too.
73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH
http://www.yaesu.com/downloadFile.cfm?F ... cation/pdf
7.1MB, but an interesting read. Some pokes at Icom's DStar in there too.
73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH
-
VK3BA
- Forum Diehard
- Posts: 326
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Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Aah, one of my favourite topics.
Information on how the various modes work is available elsewhere. From my current understanding, there are three main modes in play right now. They are D-Star, P25 and DMR. I have been a regular D-Star player since mid 2008 and have enjoyed it, despite some minor issues not related to the technology but the occasional battle for sheep stations, as to be expected. I have been dabbling with P25 for the last six months, mainly as a result of a new and wallet-friendly supply of equipment in recent times.
D-Star has been very popular and has quite a foothold these days, due to Icom's marketing effort of the past and the surge in non-Icom development amongst various home-brewers over the last few years. No other commercial manufactuer has entered the D-Star market - Kenwood, Yaesu, etc have decided to push their own view of the world. Their choice. There are approx 600 active D-Star repeater systems around the world and approx 15 systems in Australia, mainly of Icom origin and a handfull of home-brew systems. Some of these systems are mono-band and some run all three bands (2,70,23). Simplex operation is also available to D-Star users on almost any band except 160m but most operation is on 2 & 70.
P25 has historically been popular in the US, but in the last couple of years, interest has been growing in Australia. Some of my stats for P25 in VK might be slightly off. VK2 have been leaders here, with at least three P25-compatible repeaters in the greater Sydney area. There's a couple up in SE VK4, one each in Melb and Adelaide with possibly more to come. These are mainly dual-mode repeaters - FM & P25. I think about three of these existing repeaters are fixed-linked - I'm not 100% sure as I don't live in Sydney or Brisbane to determine this. Simplex operation is available to P25 users as well - mainly on 70cm.
DMR is one of the newer kids on the block, but is steadily gaining momentum around the world. I think there are at least two DMR repeaters in VK. Apart from what can be read on the internet, I don't know too much more about it. I've heard that timeslot one is for local use and timeslot two is linked globally.
As I see it, given my 4yrs with D-Star and six months with P25, my view is that the advantage of D-Star over P25 is in the user-capable linking of various repeaters and reflectors around the world, including most trust networks that are now available. The exception is where most WIA-controlled systems have some linking restrictions. The advantage of P25 over D-Star is in its audio reproduction and recovery from packet-loss. P25 is a lot more ear-friendly that what D-Star is, but then P25 lacks the vast user-linking function of D-Star.
It can be difficult to compare the various modes, as they all exist with a different purpose with different origins.
As for Yaesu's big song and dance, well, they did a lot of chest-beating last year and promised to have lots of things available for this years Dayton Hamfest. And of course it's well known that the best they could come up with was a pair of h/helds that not even Yaesu know much about. Yaesu shot their mouth off & bagged everyone else, promised a lot, then delivered nothing (a theme shared by our state Govt perhaps) and they've now put themselves in a worse position now if ever they decided to release any new product. Some companies fail to acknowledge that it's a lot easier to keep a customer than it is to win-back a customer after having pissed them off in the first place.
Like most other modes & spectrum segments in amateur radio, D-Star, P25, etc is not for everyone. Some people only live for 0-30MHz and couldn't care about anything else. Others prefer to live only in the upper part of the spectrum. If it floats your boat then enjoy the challenge. If not, no worries. For me, I'll continue to dabble with D-Star, P25, IRLP and the upper parts of the spectrum. But each to their own.
Cheers,
Information on how the various modes work is available elsewhere. From my current understanding, there are three main modes in play right now. They are D-Star, P25 and DMR. I have been a regular D-Star player since mid 2008 and have enjoyed it, despite some minor issues not related to the technology but the occasional battle for sheep stations, as to be expected. I have been dabbling with P25 for the last six months, mainly as a result of a new and wallet-friendly supply of equipment in recent times.
D-Star has been very popular and has quite a foothold these days, due to Icom's marketing effort of the past and the surge in non-Icom development amongst various home-brewers over the last few years. No other commercial manufactuer has entered the D-Star market - Kenwood, Yaesu, etc have decided to push their own view of the world. Their choice. There are approx 600 active D-Star repeater systems around the world and approx 15 systems in Australia, mainly of Icom origin and a handfull of home-brew systems. Some of these systems are mono-band and some run all three bands (2,70,23). Simplex operation is also available to D-Star users on almost any band except 160m but most operation is on 2 & 70.
P25 has historically been popular in the US, but in the last couple of years, interest has been growing in Australia. Some of my stats for P25 in VK might be slightly off. VK2 have been leaders here, with at least three P25-compatible repeaters in the greater Sydney area. There's a couple up in SE VK4, one each in Melb and Adelaide with possibly more to come. These are mainly dual-mode repeaters - FM & P25. I think about three of these existing repeaters are fixed-linked - I'm not 100% sure as I don't live in Sydney or Brisbane to determine this. Simplex operation is available to P25 users as well - mainly on 70cm.
DMR is one of the newer kids on the block, but is steadily gaining momentum around the world. I think there are at least two DMR repeaters in VK. Apart from what can be read on the internet, I don't know too much more about it. I've heard that timeslot one is for local use and timeslot two is linked globally.
As I see it, given my 4yrs with D-Star and six months with P25, my view is that the advantage of D-Star over P25 is in the user-capable linking of various repeaters and reflectors around the world, including most trust networks that are now available. The exception is where most WIA-controlled systems have some linking restrictions. The advantage of P25 over D-Star is in its audio reproduction and recovery from packet-loss. P25 is a lot more ear-friendly that what D-Star is, but then P25 lacks the vast user-linking function of D-Star.
It can be difficult to compare the various modes, as they all exist with a different purpose with different origins.
As for Yaesu's big song and dance, well, they did a lot of chest-beating last year and promised to have lots of things available for this years Dayton Hamfest. And of course it's well known that the best they could come up with was a pair of h/helds that not even Yaesu know much about. Yaesu shot their mouth off & bagged everyone else, promised a lot, then delivered nothing (a theme shared by our state Govt perhaps) and they've now put themselves in a worse position now if ever they decided to release any new product. Some companies fail to acknowledge that it's a lot easier to keep a customer than it is to win-back a customer after having pissed them off in the first place.
Like most other modes & spectrum segments in amateur radio, D-Star, P25, etc is not for everyone. Some people only live for 0-30MHz and couldn't care about anything else. Others prefer to live only in the upper part of the spectrum. If it floats your boat then enjoy the challenge. If not, no worries. For me, I'll continue to dabble with D-Star, P25, IRLP and the upper parts of the spectrum. But each to their own.
Cheers,
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Hmmm read some of it but not cover to cover as interest does not extend to that level ATM.
Also I didn't find anything of much value in what I did read either.
If it has an open codec unlike Dstar it stands a chance but if rotomola are involved I doubt it and as I understand it P25 lacks the routing capability that Dstar has but I could stand corrected on that.
I see 3BA has posted a responce while I have been reading so he might answer some of my questions so I'll go have a look.
Also I didn't find anything of much value in what I did read either.
If it has an open codec unlike Dstar it stands a chance but if rotomola are involved I doubt it and as I understand it P25 lacks the routing capability that Dstar has but I could stand corrected on that.
I see 3BA has posted a responce while I have been reading so he might answer some of my questions so I'll go have a look.
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
C4FM is just the physical layer - as GMSK is the DSTAR physical layer..
C4FM - used by P25, MotoTRBO (DMR), Kenwood NXDN (dPMR), Motorolas' RD-LAP data protocol and a couple of others.
GMSK - used by DSTAR, GSM and a few others.
Having a vote to compare DSTAR to C4FM is comparing apples to oranges. The term DSTAR is a marketing term that applies only to Icoms HAM radio digital Mode. The term C4FM is a broader communications term that applies to a specific modulation type..
C4FM - used by P25, MotoTRBO (DMR), Kenwood NXDN (dPMR), Motorolas' RD-LAP data protocol and a couple of others.
GMSK - used by DSTAR, GSM and a few others.
Having a vote to compare DSTAR to C4FM is comparing apples to oranges. The term DSTAR is a marketing term that applies only to Icoms HAM radio digital Mode. The term C4FM is a broader communications term that applies to a specific modulation type..
Matt, VK2LK
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Hi Nik,VK3BA wrote: VK2 have been leaders here, with at least three P25-compatible repeaters in the greater Sydney area. There's a couple up in SE VK4, one each in Melb and Adelaide with possibly more to come. These are mainly dual-mode repeaters - FM & P25. I think about three of these existing repeaters are fixed-linked - I'm not 100% sure as I don't live in Sydney or Brisbane to determine this. Simplex operation is available to P25 users as well - mainly on 70cm.
I was the catalyst behind two of the machines set up in Sydney (Berowra and Paddington 70cm) All of the Sydney based machines are mixed mode, P25 (NAC 293) and NFM (CTCSS 91.5) Two of them are linked, Berowra and Kurrajong. An additional Quantar was used at Berowra to take either P25 or FM from the repeater there, and transmit it over an on air link to the input at Kurrajong. Works quite well indeed, but requires an extra repeater to do it.
Theres lots of be done with P25 - I have also been heavily involved in an open source P25 project called OP25 - op25.osmocom.org which has implemented an open source transmitter and receiver, and done some security research on the protocol. I've been playing around with P25 for about 10 years now, and its great stuff indeed!
Cheers,
Matt
Matt, VK2LK
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VK7YXX
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
I don't see much chance that the (future) Yaesu offering will go far until the infrastructure is there to support it. That could take 5-10 years.
The document they released has holes you drive a truck through.
The FT-1D got a poor reception at Dayton, justifiably so in my opinion. I can only ask - what they were thinking?
The upshot is that there's nothing uber about C4FM, it's just another type of modulation.
Having said that, Amateur Radio has always been a hobby with many niches, so someone will pick it up and have a play if it ever gets released (and they're prepared to pay the rumoured $700-800 price of entry).
The document they released has holes you drive a truck through.
The FT-1D got a poor reception at Dayton, justifiably so in my opinion. I can only ask - what they were thinking?
The upshot is that there's nothing uber about C4FM, it's just another type of modulation.
Having said that, Amateur Radio has always been a hobby with many niches, so someone will pick it up and have a play if it ever gets released (and they're prepared to pay the rumoured $700-800 price of entry).
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
I have had a couple of DSTAR radios for a bit over 5 years now (was in Darwin when the first DSTAR repeater in Australia was installed) and wouldn't go for the new offering from Yaesu. Not because I don't like Yaesu (I have several Yaesu radios already), but because I think there needs to be commonality between the different systems rather than a new one brought in - it is bad enough with DSTAR and P25! DSTAR is by no means perfect but given the current expenditure in DSTAR radios and worldwide infrastructure there is no need for any more systems irrespective if there may be better performance offered by a new system. Personally I would prefer to see a digital capable radio produced that can have any type of digital mode programmed into it - so if I wanted to play on the DSTAR front or P25 or whatever system it was, I could do so with the one radio. Now that would be a major achievement for one of the big manufacturers!VK2GOM wrote:Yaesu are now pushing their C4FM FDMA digital mode.
Will this overtake DStar?
What are your thoughts? (And don't forget to vote!)
73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH
Matt
VK1MA
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VK7YXX
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Don't hold your breath, Matt. I would also like to see the same radio but I suspect that proprietary codecs will prevent a truly universal programmable radio, at least not without including the required vocoder chips (or someone pays the $ for the software licence from DVSI).VK1MA wrote:Personally I would prefer to see a digital capable radio produced that can have any type of digital mode programmed into it - so if I wanted to play on the DSTAR front or P25 or whatever system it was, I could do so with the one radio. Now that would be a major achievement for one of the big manufacturers!
It's possible that an open source codec might help in the long term, but people have too much invested in D-Star/AMBE to throw it away (what's the point of talking on D-Star if none of the ICOM rigs can hear you). Someone could also reverse engineer the AMBE codec but I'm not sure of the legal implications of that. Either way, it's a long term thing.
I always thought D-Star/P25 rig would be a good seller, but it appears nobody wants to make one.
Probably the best hope for now is development in the area of gateways/transcoders, provided the "politics" don't interfere.
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VK4DU
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Hello all
Some comments on the various digital modes:
I have used P25 a bit commercially, and it is indeed impressive in terms of voice quality for a digital mode. It certainly sounds better than D-Star or the Icom commercial version of D-Star, IDAS. Although to give IDAS its due, the ambient noise reduction qualities are excellent. You can run a power saw next to the operator, and all you can hear at the other end is the operator...
However, it is very pleasing to see more P25 repeaters popping up around the country. Of course, the principal advantage of D-Star as others have pointed out is the linking. Is that a trade off for the narrow dalek type audio (subjective, I know) and the middling quality of the radios? I certainly wouldn't fancy using a D-Star radio for emergency type work (WICEN, etc). If we could link, say, Sydney and Melbourne P25 repeaters that would be a good incentive for more activity. Very easy technically....all you need is money.
I have a Tait commercial mobile UHF (TM9155), programmed with the Sydney P25 repeaters - it works very well (as it should).
The Motorola DMR system (Mototurbo) looks promising - the world-wide linking is very simple to use, but the recovered audio is pretty close to D-Star type quality...and the radios are expensive at the moment.
As for Yaesu.....plot? Lost.
73
Glenn VK4DU
Some comments on the various digital modes:
I have used P25 a bit commercially, and it is indeed impressive in terms of voice quality for a digital mode. It certainly sounds better than D-Star or the Icom commercial version of D-Star, IDAS. Although to give IDAS its due, the ambient noise reduction qualities are excellent. You can run a power saw next to the operator, and all you can hear at the other end is the operator...
However, it is very pleasing to see more P25 repeaters popping up around the country. Of course, the principal advantage of D-Star as others have pointed out is the linking. Is that a trade off for the narrow dalek type audio (subjective, I know) and the middling quality of the radios? I certainly wouldn't fancy using a D-Star radio for emergency type work (WICEN, etc). If we could link, say, Sydney and Melbourne P25 repeaters that would be a good incentive for more activity. Very easy technically....all you need is money.
I have a Tait commercial mobile UHF (TM9155), programmed with the Sydney P25 repeaters - it works very well (as it should).
The Motorola DMR system (Mototurbo) looks promising - the world-wide linking is very simple to use, but the recovered audio is pretty close to D-Star type quality...and the radios are expensive at the moment.
As for Yaesu.....plot? Lost.
73
Glenn VK4DU
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VK4DU
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Hello all
Thought I would get this thread up again.
I've been listening to the DMARC DMR network in the states - here:
http://norcaldmr.org/listen-now/
The recovered audio is quite good, and appears to be comparable to P25 - certainly better than DSTAR.
As reported in the other thread, there is now a DMR machine up in the Sydney CBD. This compliments the Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth machines. All are linked.
The downside to DMR is that it is effectively Motorola specific if you want to set up a repeater to link to the network.
The upsides:
- a variety of mobile and portable radios from different manufacturers available
- "better" sounding and more robust (re-synch tolerant) recovered audio than DSTAR
- due to DMR's commercial application, linking and use is more simple than DSTAR - the repeaters are effectively hard linked.
More info here:
http://www.dmr-marc.net/
Over to you.
73
Glenn
Thought I would get this thread up again.
I've been listening to the DMARC DMR network in the states - here:
http://norcaldmr.org/listen-now/
The recovered audio is quite good, and appears to be comparable to P25 - certainly better than DSTAR.
As reported in the other thread, there is now a DMR machine up in the Sydney CBD. This compliments the Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth machines. All are linked.
The downside to DMR is that it is effectively Motorola specific if you want to set up a repeater to link to the network.
The upsides:
- a variety of mobile and portable radios from different manufacturers available
- "better" sounding and more robust (re-synch tolerant) recovered audio than DSTAR
- due to DMR's commercial application, linking and use is more simple than DSTAR - the repeaters are effectively hard linked.
More info here:
http://www.dmr-marc.net/
Over to you.
73
Glenn
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Glenn I'm starting to play with the DMR, mainly because Justin VK2CU has got in my ear, but the success of the "Orion" network has created a potential supply of cheap, fairly powerful DMR radios filtering down to AR. However like you my whole working hours involve P25 and my expectations of audio quality are going to be higher than most amateurs- after so many years my ears detect (digital) audio issues very quickly. I've been told to lower my expectations dramatically with DMR, but to remember that DMR offers features that P25 probably never will. However once you have heard crystal clear audio over a fully IP P25 network anything else seems like a backward step (I think you know what I mean).
DStar and Yaesu have never appealed to me. DStar because it is too nerdy and proprietary, and Yaesu because to me it is cheap junk that gives digital modes a bad name.
Cheers
Richard
VK2AAH
DStar and Yaesu have never appealed to me. DStar because it is too nerdy and proprietary, and Yaesu because to me it is cheap junk that gives digital modes a bad name.
Cheers
Richard
VK2AAH
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VK4DU
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
Yes - P25 Ip linked sounds really good...
DMR will be interesting, for sure.
Something to watch.
DMR will be interesting, for sure.
Something to watch.
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
DSTAR or Yaesu C4FM?
Never used either of them, but I am active with both P25 and DMR.
I have comissioned a number of TETRA networks, also a couple of DMR systems, and P25 as well, all commercially.
For P25 Amateur I use a Simoco SRM9000 fully enabled, EFJohnson 40W mobile in the work wagon, and hopefully I've got a Moto XTL2500 on its way for 2m, again fully enabled.
DMR repeater in Brisbane is linked on the MARC-DMR network, different talkgroups are networked to different areas, or one TG for local use.
Never used either of them, but I am active with both P25 and DMR.
I have comissioned a number of TETRA networks, also a couple of DMR systems, and P25 as well, all commercially.
For P25 Amateur I use a Simoco SRM9000 fully enabled, EFJohnson 40W mobile in the work wagon, and hopefully I've got a Moto XTL2500 on its way for 2m, again fully enabled.
DMR repeater in Brisbane is linked on the MARC-DMR network, different talkgroups are networked to different areas, or one TG for local use.
Tim, VK4TIM.
QG62MM, Brisbane.
QG62MM, Brisbane.
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VK2AH
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
with Dstar only having a band width of 6.25kHz, it can be used on all bands. Ive had many contacts on 29.480 and have had contacts on 50 megs as well C4FM has a band width or 12.5khz so would only be allowed on 144megs, 432 megs, 10 megs and above so this would limit the bands it can be used on.
C4FMK would have a better audio quality than D star because of the band width.
Brian VK2AH
C4FMK would have a better audio quality than D star because of the band width.
Brian VK2AH
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VK3ANZ
Re: DSTAR Vs C4FM Vote
I know this is an old thread, but surely there is room in the amateur radio community for more than 1 digital mode?
Just because a new mode comes along that does not mean the death of any previous ones. Each has they own advantages and disadvantages.
This is a very broad hobby we enjoy (personally I don't care for contests and moon-bounce but I would certainly not suggest that others don't get a lot of enjoyment from them) and surely there is room for every interest.
Therefore, to me, a "poll" on topics like this is pointless: if there was an "all of the above and a whole lot more" option then that is probably the only one that would get any votes at all!
Susan VK3ANZ (getting down off her soapbox)
Just because a new mode comes along that does not mean the death of any previous ones. Each has they own advantages and disadvantages.
This is a very broad hobby we enjoy (personally I don't care for contests and moon-bounce but I would certainly not suggest that others don't get a lot of enjoyment from them) and surely there is room for every interest.
Therefore, to me, a "poll" on topics like this is pointless: if there was an "all of the above and a whole lot more" option then that is probably the only one that would get any votes at all!
Susan VK3ANZ (getting down off her soapbox)