Echolink

[VK2FMSL]

Morning all,

As a newly licenced operator, I am receiving conflicting information regarding the use of echolink (from my computer not via radio). Some operators from F call through to advanced are adamant we (F calls) are permitted to use the program. Others are adamant we are not. I spoke with the WIA who were not really sure. They don't 'think' we can.

Any thoughts?

73's
Pete
VK2FMSL

[VK2CSW]

I don't know the answer but I am curious.

The people who would make the determination are the ACMA. You pay them and annual fee, so why not get some value for money and ask them?

They aren't the bad guys in fact I have always found them to be more than helpful.

Colin

[VK2MUS]

Morning all,

As a newly licenced operator, I am receiving conflicting information regarding the use of echolink (from my computer not via radio). Some operators from F call through to advanced are adamant we (F calls) are permitted to use the program. Others are adamant we are not. I spoke with the WIA who were not really sure. They don't 'think' we can.

Any thoughts?

73's
Pete
VK2FMSL

you are allowed to use it but not in a sysop mode - ie no connection to your radio is allowed so on your end you use it similar to Skype etc however on the other end you may end up on a repeater or on the airwaves. As you are not transmitting then the ACMA and regs do not apply - it is up to the other end to make sure they do not transmit you over bands you are not licensed for ( they are responsible for this not you). This also applies to the CQ100 echolink link and USA repeater links CQ100 on 28MHz band links CQ100 users to echolink users and 2M repeaters mostly hand held USA operators- you are not transmitting you are simply using the internet via your computer
To use echolink you will need to forward some ports on your router - if you have problems with this get a program called PFConfig that will do it all automatically for echolink
John VK2FJRS

[VK3XRI]

Ok so while we are on the echo link topic , as a full call i can operate echolink in sysop , so were do i stand with links and repeaters , i know well and good that i would need a license to operate echo link on a repeater or at least the repeater has to be licensed or should gain the permission from the repeater trustee how ever as a simplex node ie the radio connected via the pc to enable people to connect and talk on a simplex freq , would this need a license as depending on how you look at it , it is a repeater of sorts , same as irlp , so to do a simplex one would assume you need a repeater licence to run this , how ever when looking through the node list there are many far and wide that do not and run them under there existing calls simply with the - L prefix ,

any one know what the GO is here , and wether a licence is required for simplex echolink links , or nodes , as far as i can tell so far the answer is no but a second or 30's opinion is always good

[VK7DB]

Its probably like packet. You are permitted to run that unattended as its an automated mode.. The echolink is an automated mode?

[VK3XRI]

Its probably like packet. You are permitted to run that unattended as its an automated mode.. The echolink is an automated mode?

i thought of this as well , as far as i can tell there is a part of echo link that can be set up to id either as voice or Morse code , not to mention time and weather etc , you could just be onto something

[VK7DB]

Yes, our local repeaters here were plagued with constant time and weather broadcasts. The weather would actually be a bit useful if it was a prediction rather than a report. Anyway, the operator of those links never licenced them as repeaters. In fact the repeaters that the links are on now don't even have identification of their own, the IRLP/echolink plays the morse code ident of the repeaters callsign over the repeater, then the link identifies itself with the link operators callsign.. He seems to get away with this, so I wouldn't worry too much about it..

[VK2FMSL]

Thanks all.

I contacted ACMA who confirmed the information provided by VK2FJRS. See link http://www.acma.gov.au/web/STANDARD/pc=PC_1725

Thanks again,

73's

Pete
VK2FMSL

[VK3XRI]

thanks

but ........

this does not really answer the question , i can only assume its ok as there are heaps of htem around , and have checked the local ones against the database and they have no other licenses as for repeaters or such

then again , i don't want to bring any undue attention on my self so i might just pipe down and keep my actions on the low down LOL

[VK4FJAM]

I checked the Echolink website and it said this:

To be validated, the requestor must hold a current, valid amateur radio license, CEPT Class 2 or equivalent, or above. The following callsigns will not be accepted for validation:
Foundation-class Sysop callsigns in the U.K. and Australia (i.e. M3 calls with -L/-R suffixes, or VK calls with four-letter suffixes beginning with "F"). Foundation-class licensees are not currently permitted to operate Internet voice gateways. http://www.echolink.org/authentication.htm

Because the Foundation licence is not recognised overseas technically we are not licenced amateurs, and so to make sure that everyone is regulated to talk on all the nodes Echolink says that your callsign needs to CEPT Class 2 that I think is the Standard licence. Otherwise we are basically just technically minded CBer's or Pirates, because overseas we don't have an licence.

73's,
VK4FJAM

[VK2MUS]

I checked the Echolink website and it said this:

To be validated, the requestor must hold a current, valid amateur radio license, CEPT Class 2 or equivalent, or above. The following callsigns will not be accepted for validation:
Foundation-class Sysop callsigns in the U.K. and Australia (i.e. M3 calls with -L/-R suffixes, or VK calls with four-letter suffixes beginning with "F"). Foundation-class licensees are not currently permitted to operate Internet voice gateways. http://www.echolink.org/authentication.htm

Because the Foundation licence is not recognised overseas technically we are not licenced amateurs, and so to make sure that everyone is regulated to talk on all the nodes Echolink says that your callsign needs to CEPT Class 2 that I think is the Standard licence. Otherwise we are basically just technically minded CBer's or Pirates, because overseas we don't have an licence.

73's,
VK4FJAM

mine is validated - I think there is a mix up between normal mode and sysop mode - Foundation Licence is not allowed to use sysop mode - in normal mode you are not generating radio emissions thus the radio communications act does not apply in normal mode echolink is the same as cq100 or hamsphere ( its vocie over internet)

The foundation licence is recognised over seas - if your callsign comes up on a search of the ACMA database then you are licensed. The reason why we can't use sysop mode is that the foundation licence cannot use digital modes ( which I strongly feel should be changed) and it is unattended

[VK4FJAM]

I agree with the no transmitting thing.

As long as you aren't connecting to any Repeaters or Links overseas then you are okay. As long as you are only talking to other Users, because as you say you aren't actually transmitting.

73's,
vk4fjam

[VK2CJC]

This is one of those areas which is often misunderstood.

An F call can use echolink, but not run a node. IE, OK to run the program as a user, but not as sysop. Its OK to access a node on air so long as your licensed for the band your transmitting on. Its OK to be re-transmitted in other countries so long as you are licenced to operate on the band you are being re-transmitted on.

The F call must make sure he is not being repeated out onto bands hes not lisenced to use. IE, if the node re-transmits him onto 6mtrs, the F call is not allowed to talk through it. Even if he doesnt realise this is happening, hes still breaking the rules. The idea that the re-transmitted station is responsable for the re-transmitted transmission under his license conditions is not true in Australia. It is in other countries, such as the UK. But not here. This is utterly bloody ridiculous and the rules here should be the same as the UK, but they are not.

Does an echolink node require a repeater license? Nobodys node is licensed seperately. It seems to be allowed under the unattended operations clause. This was originally written for packet radio, not echolink, but seems to allow it. People who run through a repeater and change their callsign to the repeaters would seem to be illegal in my view. It should show the sysops callsign -R.

I used to run an echolink node and thats the info as up to date as I could get it. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

[VK3CRG]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to bring an old topic back to life, but I've recently (March 2014) been in contact with Mark Tell at the ACMA in Melbourne (ACMA Field Operations) and he has advised me that I AM required to hold a separate license in order to run my IRLP / EchoLink node while not in attendance.

The reason I require a separate license is that if the 'automatic station' is used unattended for VOICE - you do need a separate "repeater" license (in my case VK3R**) despite the fact that my node is a 2 metre simplex node and not in anyway connected to a repeater.

The node I run is IRLP Node # 6789 & EchoLink 79555 in Lara near Geelong Vic which had been operating for 18 months with no issues and is used a lot by local amateurs and folk dialling into it. However recently there had been some sort of interference which was coming from somewhere near the Geelong CBD on the node's 2m frequency which was causing problems for some using the node.

I contacted the ACMA and they did investigate the issue, and it was then I was asked if I had a separate license for the node as it's operated "unattended" and is used for "voice".

After a long discussion clarifying the ACMA's position, I was told the following by Mark...(quoting)...

"Unless the device is licensed, ie as a Repeater or a Beacon, or it is an automatic station, ie APRS or Packet; operating it unattended is a breach of Sect 9 of the LCD.

You will find that that quite a number of these simplex nodes are indeed licensed and issued with an “R” call. i.e search VK3RVZ, VK3RIT, VK3RPJ, etc

You would need to apply through the WIA"...

It's my understanding that more than one Victorian amateur has recently had their nodes taken off-air by ACMA inspectors, as the nodes were not separately licensed or allocated a frequency by the ACMA.

My node was already off-air while the ACMA investigated the interference, and since finding out I need a separate repeater license, I've put in my application via the WIA and I'm now awaiting confirmation from the ACMA of my VK3R** call sign and allocated frequency.

Before I put the node on air, I called the Licensing Division of the ACMA in Canberra and explained to them what I was doing and they said I did NOT require a license, so it's definitely an area that involves much confusion.

The LCD's don't mention IRLP or EchoLink but only 'repeaters' and 'beacons' so it's very confusing, but it appears to think that IRLP and EchoLink nodes are treated the same as a packet or APRS station is incorrect. If it's for voice and used unattended - you need a license according to ACMA.

However, it was also made very clear that you DO NOT need a license if you don't run your node "unattended".

73,

Craig VK3CRG

[VK4DU]

Sorry, don't agree with Mark (and it wouldn't be the first time... ),

What is the difference between an APRS or packet station and a simplex echolink node located an an amateurs QTH?

I have run a simplex echolink node for a couple of years on and off with no problems.

It IDs in CW (via the echolink s'ware), and the radio (a commercial VHF mobile) has a time out timer set to 2 mins...

Why does it need to be licenced? I would understand if it was located at a commercial site, where there is the possibility of QRM....

73
Glenn

[VK2AAH]

Craig has lodged his paperwork and once I warm my morning coffee I should have his endorsement done... I believe the way he is dealing with the issue is the responsible way.

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2OMD]

...

After a long discussion clarifying the ACMA's position, I was told the following by Mark...(quoting)...

"Unless the device is licensed, ie as a Repeater or a Beacon, or it is an automatic station, ie APRS or Packet; operating it unattended is a breach of Sect 9 of the LCD.

You will find that that quite a number of these simplex nodes are indeed licensed and issued with an “R” call. i.e search VK3RVZ, VK3RIT, VK3RPJ, etc

You would need to apply through the WIA"...

...

The LCD's don't mention IRLP or EchoLink but only 'repeaters' and 'beacons' so it's very confusing, but it appears to think that IRLP and EchoLink nodes are treated the same as a packet or APRS station is incorrect. If it's for voice and used unattended - you need a license according to ACMA.

However, it was also made very clear that you DO NOT need a license if you don't run your node "unattended".

...

The LCD says

9 Control of equipment at an amateur station
(1) The licensee must ensure that an amateur station is operated at all times by a
qualified operator or qualified person in attendance at the amateur station,
unless the station is:
(a) an amateur repeater station; or
(b) an amateur beacon station; or
(c) an amateur station using automatic mode (including, for example,
packet mode and radioteletype mode); or
(d) an amateur station using computer controlled mode (including, for
example, packet mode and radioteletype mode); or
(e) an amateur station at a remote location.

Packet operation is explictly listed, and "packet mode" is defined, APRS is a special application of "packet mode" so it would be hard to mount an argument that the LCD does not permit APRS. The typical digipeater of decades ago (the heyday of packet) used a Z80 computer chip for control, many modern APRS digis use the same hardware... they are "computer controlled".

9.1.d would seem to capture any mode where a computer (in the most general meaning of the word as demonstrated in the digipeater case) is controlling the station. It does give some examples, but the list does not to limit the meaning of a "computer controlled mode", read it as "including, but not limited to...".

It is not clear to me why this clause does not permit unattended operation of an Echolink radio node, an IRLP node, or a lot of other things like personal propagation beacons and WSPR to give some examples of 'modes' where a computer controls the station.

This seems a case of rule making on the fly, rules that have far reaching effects and seem inconsistent with the LCD.

Owen

[VK2TS]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to bring an old topic back to life, but I've recently (March 2014) been in contact with Mark Tell at the ACMA in Melbourne (ACMA Field Operations) and he has advised me that I AM required to hold a separate license in order to run my IRLP / EchoLink node while not in attendance.

The reason I require a separate license is that if the 'automatic station' is used unattended for VOICE - you do need a separate "repeater" license (in my case VK3R**) despite the fact that my node is a 2 metre simplex node and not in anyway connected to a repeater.

The node I run is IRLP Node # 6789 & EchoLink 79555 in Lara near Geelong Vic which had been operating for 18 months with no issues and is used a lot by local amateurs and folk dialling into it. However recently there had been some sort of interference which was coming from somewhere near the Geelong CBD on the node's 2m frequency which was causing problems for some using the node.

I contacted the ACMA and they did investigate the issue, and it was then I was asked if I had a separate license for the node as it's operated "unattended" and is used for "voice".

After a long discussion clarifying the ACMA's position, I was told the following by Mark...(quoting)...

"Unless the device is licensed, ie as a Repeater or a Beacon, or it is an automatic station, ie APRS or Packet; operating it unattended is a breach of Sect 9 of the LCD.

You will find that that quite a number of these simplex nodes are indeed licensed and issued with an “R” call. i.e search VK3RVZ, VK3RIT, VK3RPJ, etc

You would need to apply through the WIA"...

It's my understanding that more than one Victorian amateur has recently had their nodes taken off-air by ACMA inspectors, as the nodes were not separately licensed or allocated a frequency by the ACMA.

My node was already off-air while the ACMA investigated the interference, and since finding out I need a separate repeater license, I've put in my application via the WIA and I'm now awaiting confirmation from the ACMA of my VK3R** call sign and allocated frequency.

Before I put the node on air, I called the Licensing Division of the ACMA in Canberra and explained to them what I was doing and they said I did NOT require a license, so it's definitely an area that involves much confusion.

The LCD's don't mention IRLP or EchoLink but only 'repeaters' and 'beacons' so it's very confusing, but it appears to think that IRLP and EchoLink nodes are treated the same as a packet or APRS station is incorrect. If it's for voice and used unattended - you need a license according to ACMA.

However, it was also made very clear that you DO NOT need a license if you don't run your node "unattended".

73,

Craig VK3CRG

The biggest mistake is asking the ACMA to clarify anything. The usual responses will be NO or you must pay for it. IRLP and Echolink nodes do not require licensing for a Standard or Advanced licencee as listed in the LCD. This does not allow however for a Foundation Licencee to operate a node see:

27A Restrictions on operation of an amateur foundation station
(1) The licensee of an amateur licence (amateur foundation station) must not
authorise another person to operate the licensee’s amateur station if the
other person is not a qualified operator or qualified person.
(2) The licensee of an amateur licence (amateur foundation station) must not
operate an amateur station using automatic mode or computer controlled
mode.
(3) The licensee of an amateur licence (amateur foundation station) must not
operate an amateur station that is directly connected to a public
telecommunications network.
Note An amateur foundation station may be indirectly connected to a public

Its very clear. The licensing of IRLP and Echolink nodes seems to be very popular with VK3's for some unknown reason. You blokes must have money to burn when your license condition clearly covers their use.

Cheers

[VK4DU]

It is not clear to me why this clause does not permit unattended operation of an Echolink radio node, an IRLP node, or a lot of other things like personal propagation beacons and WSPR to give some examples of 'modes' where a computer controls the station.

This seems a case of rule making on the fly, rules that have far reaching effects and seem inconsistent with the LCD.

Owen

I agree, Owen. It seems inconsistent to me.

9.1. (d) of the LCD does not prohibit IRLP/Echolink - as they are, by definition, computer controlled modes. The items listed in the brackets are examples, not definitive requirements.

There is no specific exclusion for voice.

There are dozens of these simplex nodes operating all over Australia without R callsigns.

Have the ACMA changed their requirements? Have these changes been discussed with the WIA?

It all seems rather ad hoc.

[VK2AAH]

Where there is an EXPECTATION that a specific frequency will be available for use I believe that the specific license is required. If someone sets up a device giving remote access to others and publicises that it will operate on a specific frequency, then unless they have that frequency assigned AND licensed they have no more right to use that frequency than anybody else (holding an appropriate amateur license). Now if you are happy to take that punt I'm with you Tony VK2TS... but if I choose to have a chat with a mate on the frequency your node is on then don't expect any sympathy or consideration. People seem to have a problem distinguishing between the privilege you gain from a regular amateur license to SHARE the spectrum with that of a special license (repeater, beacon, node etc) which grants EXCLUSIVE use of that frequency from a specific location within a specific coverage area. It grants a degree of protection that a normal amateur license does not. Two different types of license entirely...

And I can understand why some don't ask ACMA for an answer to a question. None of us hate to be told NO... or even worse... you are WRONG! Another saying... ignorance is bliss.

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH