License Issue Timescales

[ADMIN]

Edit:

To reply to post immediately below.

How about that!
You learn something everyday.

It appears, "Last visited" details are not available to normal users.
Ohh well.

Details, now irrelevant, removed.

[VK5ZD]

It's a simple 1-2-3 to determine who is a member here, and when they last visited this forum.

How do you get the 'last visited' column?
All I see is Username, Rank, Posts, Website, Location and Joined.

[VK1AZ]

I think this is actually post 1 so be nice

My experience seems to be about normal reading between the lines.
All dates below are accurate to a week.... i have a shocking timeline memory.

Decided to jump straight in and get my Advanced license so booked in to do the exams week 2 of June but due to a slight mix up in the number of exams required i couldn't do the Advanced theory on the day. Did sit and pass the Practical and Regulations and the paperwork was sent off on the Monday. I had a written response back from the WIA with results i believe on the Friday of that week! complete with letters wishing me the best for future exams.
Got to sit the Advanced theory on the Monday after getting previous results, passed it on the night. Was told by the assesor that it would likely be 3 to 4 weeks before i heard anything and as i was going away on holidays this didn't worry me one bit.
Fast forward four weeks and still no news, about this time i started checking for my requested callsign being removed from the available list but it stayed listed till the day the paperwork from ACMA arrived at just under 5 weeks total with a public holiday.
Was this too long? being heavily involved in Change Process and paperwork probably not. However, an email and or letter from WIA to say paperwork had been submitted to ACMA would have been excellent feedback and as emails are ubiquous these days would seem to be easy to implement.

It's my thought the lack of interactive feedback available to people in the age of tracking anything and everything via the internet is something open to real improvements.
Just to prove that WIA/ACMA are not the only ones to fail in this regard.... i had the pleasure of renewing a business name around the same time of sitting the exams, the initial order payment tracking via the website has ok after the torturous registration process BUT i have yet to see a new certificate, no written confirmation, no actual certificate nor any indication it's no longer needed..... suppose i better pick the phone up and follow up.

Oh now i just need to set up a base station from scratch... step one, submit tax return to see what spare money i have

Hope to catch up on the air
Phil

[VK2XSO]

I decided last week to send some letters to some people that might matter with regard to this issue.
Key Liberal and Labor candidates and sitting members in the House of Representatives and the Senate.
With the election so close I decided it was a good time to do so.

The WIA in incapable of fixing the problem and the ACMA is unwilling to fix it.

I stated simply to the people I wrote to that the current testing and licence issue system run by the WIA and backed by the ACMA is below any sort of acceptable standard.

The solution is to allow club to compete directly against the WIA and each other.
A small pool of fixed tests held by the ACMA are issued to the clubs electronically who can then print as many exams as needed for that day printed on the exam
The ACMA gives each club a range of certificate numbers. The club pays a fixed fee for the service.

The club has a JP verify the identity of each applicant.

The clubs mark the exams and issue the certificate and forward the details to the ACMA
The ACMA issues the licence electronically.

The clubs can charge what they like taking into account the ACMA fee.

It's simple, it's reliable, it's cheap, it's quick.

More licence holders means more tax through licence fees to the government !
And more free science and engineering education for the community for free.

[VK4DU]

Mal - the man who will be minister for comms come Sunday - is a champion of free enterprise....

[VK1VMA]

The US system is very fast and efficient.

Three examiners run the exam session. Each of the three examiners sights photo ID for each candidates, and they all supervise the session. Those three examiners than separately mark each paper, and each sign the certificate stating that you've passed at whatever level is appropriate.

The examiner coordinating the session then submits the results to the FCC electronically, and the FCC issues your license, generally within 3-4 days but it rarely takes more than a week. As with here, you're good to go as soon as your name appears in the database.

If you're upgrading from one licence class to another, you're good to go with your new privileges as soon as you have that certificate in your hand; no need to wait for your license to be updated. Just use /AG or /AE (for General or Extra, as appropriate) after your callsign when you use your new privileges until your new license shows up on the FCC database.

[VK2AAH]

Hi Mat,

I don't have any involvement in the examination side of things but I already submit license changes to the ACMA electronically (email). One licensee reported to me that it was processed by ACMA the same day... What can't be guaranteed is that ACMA don't already have a backlog of work that can cause a delay of weeks- at one stage recently they were advising a 4 week delay due to a heavy load of UHF licensing. The FCC and ACMA are very different beasts when it comes to resources and hams are treated just like any other "client". You go in the queue...

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH/W7

[VK5ZLR]

I decided last week to send some letters to some people that might matter with regard to this issue.

The WIA in incapable of fixing the problem and the ACMA is unwilling to fix it.

I stated simply to the people I wrote to that the current testing and licence issue system run by the WIA and backed by the ACMA is below any sort of acceptable standard.

Good on Ya!

Trying to drag the WIA into the 21st century could be an um well err challenge......

Possibly the people who matter in the ACMA are not fully across the problem, after all the WIA probably don't bring it up at WIA-ACMA meetings.

Anyway well done.

[VK/9V1CJ]

From my personal experience I have found the WIA and ACMA relatively efficient. While they are not ridiculously fast, they have kept to their stated estimated times of processing in all cases. The only time I have (am) experiencing a delay is with my reciprocal licencing - the WIA has ok-ed my advanced call, but it seems to be delayed at ACMA, and I have a suspicion it might be because I filled in the R057 form with some errors.

Whatever the case is, I'm quite happy with the ACMA/WIA. Information is freely available, and the contact people's phone numbers/emails are clearly listed out.

Licensing is easy in my own country for locals (due to the low number to amateur operators), but God help you if you are not a citizen and are applying for a reciprocal licence - you won't even know where to start if you don't have a local ham to help you- information is EVERYWHERE.

Off-topic, If anyone ever needs a Singapore reciprocal licence for some reason let me know, I'll be willing to assist.

[VK1VMA]

I'm told the only manual effort involved on the FCC's part in issuing an amateur license is basically a quick eyeball check to ensure the applicant isn't prohibited from holding an amateur license (because their old one was canceled for illegal activity, for example), and hitting the approve button.

The examiner does the tedious work of entering the applicant's details, and the computer is more than capable of allocating a callsign by itself, which apparently in VK is a difficult task so labour intensive for ACMA that it needs to be outsourced...

[VK2XSO]

From my personal experience I have found the WIA and ACMA relatively efficient. While they are not ridiculously fast, they have kept to their stated estimated times of processing in all cases.

Really ? What estimate did they give you ?
Because when I did my licence it took me 24 hours from putting my pen to the paper and pressing the PTT. Most of that time the DOC was closed because it was Sunday !
A friend sat and passed his exam five weeks ago, he paid four times the amount I did indexed for inflation. HE'S STILL WAITING !!! and he's not the only one.
In what universe is this an improvement ?

I have dealt with many branches government offices in the former USSR and the break up states since.
I'm now willing to bet that I can fly to Kazakhstan, sit an amateur radio exam, pass and get a licence issued and fly back quicker than the WIA can process a licence !

There's no excusing this level of incompetence either with the WIA's process or the ACMA's audit.

I suspect that Mal might be a bit busy the next few weeks taping back together the shredded documents from the former government.
I'm hoping one of his minions sees fit to escalate my letter to somebody important for consideration or at least a 'please explain'.

[VK/9V1CJ]

From my personal experience I have found the WIA and ACMA relatively efficient. While they are not ridiculously fast, they have kept to their stated estimated times of processing in all cases.

Really ? What estimate did they give you ?
Because when I did my licence it took me 24 hours from putting my pen to the paper and pressing the PTT. Most of that time the DOC was closed because it was Sunday !
A friend sat and passed his exam five weeks ago, he paid four times the amount I did indexed for inflation. HE'S STILL WAITING !!! and he's not the only one.
In what universe is this an improvement ?

I have dealt with many branches government offices in the former USSR and the break up states since.
I'm now willing to bet that I can fly to Kazakhstan, sit an amateur radio exam, pass and get a licence issued and fly back quicker than the WIA can process a licence !

There's no excusing this level of incompetence either with the WIA's process or the ACMA's audit.

I suspect that Mal might be a bit busy the next few weeks taping back together the shredded documents from the former government.
I'm hoping one of his minions sees fit to escalate my letter to somebody important for consideration or at least a 'please explain'.

1. F call exam and licence, 4 weeks (ACMA and WIA combined).
2. Reciprocal Level 2 callsign (advanced) recommendation, 2 weeks (WIA)

[VK2AAH]

Sorry, but I have to wonder when under-staffing (common to many agencies these days) became incompetence? I know you like to take the potshots at people Trash but if you think it does anything towards improving things then you are kidding yourself. Hams are not entitled to receive priority treatment in processing within the ACMA so when a large pile of non-amateur licensing work comes in hams have to wait. They don't bring in extra staff just to clear the backlog.

As for the WIA... well people will always accuse it of incompetence because they think that all wisdom rests between their own ears. No shortage of ego/delusion among us... My advice to people wanting licenses processed quickly is (a) make sure the paperwork is complete and accurate, (b) don't ask for things that are unreasonable & likely to get bounced, and (c) Communicate, don't bully. Bullying doesn't work on me & I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH/W7

[VK2CSW]

Actually Richard, chronic under-staffing is a very visible sign of incompetence.

It may not be the minions who are incompetent, however, the supervisors, middle managers, managers and executives are all implicit in that kind of incompetence.

[VK1VMA]

Actually Richard, chronic under-staffing is a very visible sign of incompetence.

It may not be the minions who are incompetent, however, the supervisors, middle managers, managers and executives are all implicit in that kind of incompetence.

And a failure to introduce efficient business processes, including automating all that can reasonably be automated is part of the same incompetence.

[VK2XSO]

Sorry, but I have to wonder when under-staffing (common to many agencies these days) became incompetence?

Colin beat me to it. Failing to manage a business is incompetence.

We both know that if they were not a monopoly they would have no customers !

I know you like to take the potshots at people Trash but if you think it does anything towards improving things then you are kidding yourself.

Well you might not have noticed, but customer complaints are not being taken seriously. The WIA isn't interested in fixing the problem else they would have done so long ago.
Fixing the problem, I'm doing more about it than they are.
First, I'm making it very clear to the amateur community what is happening. Most operators are not aware because they are not directly affected or exposed to it.
If the WIA were serious, they would have something simple like a customer feedback.
And then they would actively react to the suggestions in that feedback rather than ignore it.

Hams are not entitled to receive priority treatment in processing within the ACMA so when a large pile of non-amateur licensing work comes in hams have to wait. They don't bring in extra staff just to clear the backlog.

What a complete crock of shite !
I go to the RTA, they process customers as they come in. They don't process a semi trailer registration any different to my motorcycle because they are a "bigger paying customer".
It's simple licencing on the most basic scale. Does an AOCP certificate have some sort of special kind of security features that require the photo age with the applicant over the years ?

15 minutes is what it took in 1990. What's changed ? Is there some sort of terrorist threat from Al Queda infiltrating the ranks of Amateur Radio operators in Australia ?
Nothing has changed other than the ACMA has handed off the process of attaching a photo to a piece of paper and allocating it a reference number in a database.
That now costs ACMA customers an extra $200 and four weeks.

As for the WIA... well people will always accuse it of incompetence because they think that all wisdom rests between their own ears.

No, I have called it incompetence because that is what it is. Unless they are deliberately processing things slowly.. that wouldn't be incompetence.

No shortage of ego/delusion among us... My advice to people wanting licenses processed quickly is (a) make sure the paperwork is complete and accurate, (b) don't ask for things that are unreasonable & likely to get bounced, and (c) Communicate, don't bully. Bullying doesn't work on me & I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

The paperwork is being done correctly, nobody is asking for anything unreasonable other than they get a reasonable service.
They're not getting that and it is effecting the entire hobby of amateur radio in this country.

If the WIA thinks it's doing a good job, then I say they can continue doing things the way they currently do. But open the system up to some competition.
Allow other organisations and individuals to compete. Is that unreasonable ?

As for my letters to various politicians and candidates for this election. If they WIA won't take notice, then maybe somebody else higher up the food chain will.
The WIA isn't accountable to me, but the Executive Government (ACMA) working for the Elected Government are.

I'm not bullying the WIA, I'm telling (them) everybody what is wrong.
And I will continue to do so until they do so, or I give up (not likely) or I'm dead. In which case I'll find new ways from beyond the grave to tackle this issue.

[VK3ALB]

I think the prompt and efficient processing of licenses for new hams should be one of our very highest priorities.

Assessors are responsible for making sure the completed assessments, application forms, money, photos etc are all packaged and sent to the WIA asap. Generally the next business day. That surely must be a very big part of the process.

I can buy a house, or a car, get a loan from a bank, even get a working with children card or a police check in less than six weeks. I can even get a tradie to come to my house, quote and complete a bathroom renovation in less than 6 weeks.

Why does it take 6 weeks to get a ham radio license?

[VK2AAH]

Actually Richard, chronic under-staffing is a very visible sign of incompetence.

It may not be the minions who are incompetent, however, the supervisors, middle managers, managers and executives are all implicit in that kind of incompetence.

And a failure to introduce efficient business processes, including automating all that can reasonably be automated is part of the same incompetence.

Mat,

Read what I wrote previously. Many systems are "automated" however in licensing (other than simple call sign issue) it can't be totally automated. There is a need for a human to check the data.

Not getting into a stupid, pointless ACMA bagging exercise when it has been pointed out that if there is a resourcing issue the fault rests higher up the food chain. It doesn't, because anyone with half a brain realises that an agency like ACMA experiences peaks & troughs in workload & no responsible management staffs for the peaks, normally closer to the troughs.

It just staggers me how a small group that pays so little towards ACMA's costs can squark so much... no wonder hams have the poor reputation they have.

Cheers


Richard
VK2AAH/W7

[VK1VMA]

Read what I wrote previously. Many systems are "automated" however in licensing (other than simple call sign issue) it can't be totally automated. There is a need for a human to check the data.

I did, and in response I present an obvious example of a process that should be trivial to automate, but isn't: Callsign allocation.

The business rules behind callsign allocation are really simple, but yet as far as I can tell, ACMA is the only administration in the world that not only can't automate that part of the process, but have had to outsource it, because the manual workload involved was too much for them to deal with using their own resources.

Another example is ACMA's unhealthy love for paper forms.

If you apply for almost type of license, you have to physically mail in your paper R057/R077 (or email/fax a scanned copy), and pay via cheque/money order or wait for ACMA to email you an invoice to allow you to pay via credit card. How many man-hours are devoted to entering data from those paper forms, and for that matter, how many people under the age of 50 still own a chequebook? This was a modern way of doing business in 1993, not so much in 2013.

Even Defence, one of the least forward thinking Commonwealth agencies I know of, has made their security clearance process fully electronic. The 30+ page paper forms that they used to mail out in 1" thick envelopes are now a thing of the past.

VK2AAH/W7

Don't you mean W7/VK2AAH?

[VK2AAH]

Or let me put it another way Mat...

First, are you a WIA member?

Second, would you pay the cost of full time admin staff to sit in the office at Melbourne to process applications as they appear?

The delays are NOT normally in ACMA... sometimes they are because of peaks in workload. However anything can be sorted out for a price... but this is the problems with hams- they so often complain about the level of services while either not wanting to pay what that costs, or want it for free. When delays do occur in ACMA they occur because they have other work to do... ham callsigns are probably not such a high priority compared to other stuff LAIS handle.

You can scan those forms Mat... heard of pdf? I do it & can get stuff through same day if things are quiet.

If people here only knew the amount of time WIA volunteers give to getting the work done... they would appreciate that delays aren't deliberate, just that we aren't sitting around waiting for your paperwork. We have something called "lives"... and "jobs".

The problem with a forum like this is that far more people are inclined to use it to whinge rather than share the good experiences they've had. Good news stories don't attract must interest.

Richard