License Issue Timescales

[VK3BA]

Ya gotta be patient folks...

A couple of years ago, I applied for a 70cm amateur repeater licence in September, it then went to ACMA in December, then issued by ACMA in late January. Other experiences from recent times:

Outpost licences: 3 days

Commercial licences: 3 - 5 days

In regards to amateur repeater licences, the very first thing you should do before you even crank up the soldering iron, is put your application in and wait. Then you'll have plenty of time to do your construction & configuring work, site permits & permissions, site prep, etc. Carry out some 7 day tests, turn it off for one minute and let it go again.

Repeater & Beacon applications when at the WIA stage, are managed mostly by volunteers in their own time.

Cheers,

[VK4BS]

Again, the fact that it is done by volunteers in their own time is not an excuse for lengthy delays. This is especially so when the delays are compounded by internal politics...

As I said before, if the WIA and/or its volunteers can't process an application within a reasonable time they should not take over that responsibility from ACMA. The time taken for the other licence classes quoted above is VERY telling.

All the steps you describe may not need to be taken in every case. For example, I applied for a repeater licence at my home. No permits needed, no site work, no interference problems or risks. Another example, moving a repeater back to a site that was previously used and has been host for a digipeater. Again, virtually no work needed prior to installation.

Yet we still wait four months for the licence?

Howard
VK4BS

[VK2AAH]

Hi all,

I can't fathom this... a few months back Trent 4TS asked me if I was interested in helping out with this task. I let him know that I was happy to assist but after that I've heard nothing from anyone. I'm sure there are people like me who have the credentials & are willing to assist, but if we aren't given the opportunity to help out nothing can change. I'm very sympathetic with the plight of well intentioned, motivated but over worked volunteers (not just in AR but in many other fields) but not if they choose not to take up offers of assistance. My offer still stands... always happy to help out if given the chance.

Cheers,

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4TS]

Hi Richard

I don't log on to the logger forum much these days and was told that you were here wondering where I was...

- must have had crossed wires

Please email VK4TS@WIA.ORG.AU

Regards

Trent

[VK2AAH]

Hi Trent,

I've sent you a PM but I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't having a dig at you- but I just found this discussion a bit baffling because if the current volunteers need a hand I'm only too happy to assist them. I agree with others that the delays described seem excessive. There may be good reasons for that (lack of proper info, dealing with assignment conflicts etc)...

Cheers,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4CBL]

I have my vintage ZL3 taken to a shiny new VK4 with same day service at WIA and ACMA.
Posted Monday 21/5 letter issued 22/5.
Posted Monday 28/5 in system by 10:30 am 29/5 callsign appeared around 12pm.

Can't argue with the results, looks like the a tiny little bit of the system works.

Conrad

[VK7YXX]

Conrad,

Although I'm glad you haven't had to deal with the frustrations that I, and other people, related earlier in this thread, I just can't agree with the statement that "the system works" until your experience becomes the norm. If, and really I mean if, things have changed and your indicated time frames are the way things will work from now on then that's great, and the WIA/ACMA should be congratulated for fixing a clearly broken system. Time will tell.

Amateur repeater licences are obviously a different kettle of fish compared to Amateur operator licences, but I still have to agree with Howard's assessment of the situation. I applied for a repeater licence under similar circumstances to Howard, except a month later, yet our licences were received by the ACMA on the same day. In my case it took six weeks to pass through the WIA and reach the ACMA, in Howard's case it took 10 weeks! The ACMA will have had our applications for six weeks this Thursday. Regular calls have determined that both of our applications have been sitting with a particular section within the ACMA that entire time, awaiting processing. In other words - no processing has taken place in six weeks.

As a by-product of attempting to be given some "official" expectation regarding the repeater licence process time frame, as opposed to the depressing anecdotal indication given by others that have gone through the process, it appears there is no publicly available service level, short of a statutory one of 90 days from the date of receipt by the ACMA. This means there can be no accounting, and therefore recourse, for issues with "the system" until the ACMA has had the application for 90 days, and no accounting at all for the WIA process prior to that.

I've repeatedly heard of seriously questionable time frames for processing repeater applications too many times before. The thought that it could take 4-6 months for the initial application, and similar time frames for variations after that, just seems ludicrous.

[VK4BS]

Spot on Don. In response to my inquiries ACMA told me that they have 90 days under the legislation to process the application. When I responded that is the maximum and not a service level they advised that they do have a service level which is less than the 6 to 8 weeks they initially quoted but THEY WILL NOT TELL ME WHAT IT IS!! Furthermore when I put to them that they require the application to be lodged with the WIA as the first step and thus the 90 days should start then, they sent back this reply:

The WIA is contracted by the ACMA to issue amateur certificates of proficiency and manage amateur callsigns, in addition to the provision of amateur examinations. The WIA provides these services to the amateur community as the ACMA’s authorised delegate.

The ACMA and the WIA do have an agreement that the processing of all licence applications for amateur repeaters must be coordinated through the WIA. This is because the Amateur band is self-regulated and repeaters can be licensed to operate only in segments assigned to them in the WIA’s Australian Amateur Band Plans.

The WIA is not an agent for the ACMA to issue apparatus licences for an amateur repeater stations. Therefore, the statutory timeframe to make a decision on your application for a repeater commences when the application is received by ACMA.

So they have an agreement but they are not a delegate? Nice way to blow out the time taken to process applications without breaching the Act... Where do I find this agreement or is it like the service levels and not to be seen by those that are effected by it?????

Their service is so bad that I will be lodging a formal complaint with the ombudsman and am recording progress, communications with ACMA and other info for that purpose. I think it is natural to forget the whole thing once the licence is issued but then that means those who follow will suffer the same unacceptable delays. It is for this reason that I will not let it drop once I have my licence.

If anyone wishes to provide me with factual information about the time taken for a repeater licence that I may include in my ombudsman submission please send it to me at vk4bs@small.com.au.

And so it goes on...

Howard

[VK2AAH]

Hi Howard,

I've done alot of frequency assignment stuff over the years & over all I have to say that it is far far quicker now than it was in years gone by (and I go back to 1981). Most of the time the delays are caused by dealing with assignment conflicts or requests for (legitimate) additional information. The odd one needs a polite follow up call and I don't know any organisation that hasn't required that.

But honestly you guys don't know how easy you have it. I'm working my way around Embargos right now and when you start doing things that push the envelope... that takes some co-operation, courtesy & respect for the job the ACMA guys do, rather than running off to an Ombudsman. Good luck with that!

Cheers,

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3BA]

Howard VK4BS,

I'm a fan of yours, mainly because I like what you're progressing with D-Star stuff (feel free to give me a shout on REF023A).

I used to get all uptight about timeframes, but don't anymore. I think that if you've got some concerns and/or issues, you should direct them to the WIA Prez at president@wia.org.au any convey your enquires there. I'm unsure if anyone from the WIA watches the VK Logger Forums, hence I reckon you're best to send an email to the WIA direct regarding your concerns. I'm with you regarding how long certain processes are taking. But I guess it's a balance.

There's not much more I can add that hasn't already been said already.

Cheers,

[VK7YXX]

I should make it clear that the frustration expressed here is not directed at the people that work for the WIA, or the ACMA, it is directed at the process and the time frame. With the exception of one particular experience, the people I've spoken to have been polite and helpful, within their ability to be so. I know there are a bunch of things that have to be done, and I've been told that the WIA does some "pre-processing" before passing the application to the ACMA. This should provide some value-add, but I'm not seeing it in my experience.

I've been told that resourcing issues and the resulting backlogs are a significant contributing factor, and if this is the case then that should be addressed, not just accepted. Service levels should be established and every effort made to achieve them. If you accept poor service levels you will forever be condemned to receive them.

Most people probably don't care much. As I said in an earlier post, my care factor disappeared once I received my operators licence, but I have no doubt that I will have to go through this process again, as will others, and I don't think that my care factor will reduce this time around. Think about it. It is entirely likely that a repeater licence application and a couple of variations, such as a new site, pY, frequency and/or mode change, could take over a year to be finalised. A year, seriously? The closest thing I can think of to this sort of service level is the public health system.

[VK2AAH]

Hi Don,

Are you saying that it is taking a year just to make a routine change to an EXISTING licence? By routine I'd consider mode or py as "routine"... change of site may or may not be routine- that depends totally on a whole lot of things. But I have to agree that a year seems excessively long. Hopefully this issue can be resolved soon- and I'm 99.9999% certain (bet my house on it!) that the WIA have & are reading & taking note of this discussion.

Cheers,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK7YXX]

G'day Richard,

What I'm saying is that it is entirely possible that the process of applying for a repeater licence and then making a couple of somewhat common changes could encompass a 12 month period. This is based on a number of instances where existing licence holders I know have related experiences of 3-4 month processing times for changes to existing licences, plus Howard's current experience of in excess of 3 months waiting for his application to be processed (so far).

If you think about getting a repeater up and operating from scratch, it's not a task for the faint of heart. Often the final location may not be know, or negotiations may not be finalised. Given that RFI of various forms may not manifest themselves until well down the experimental track, it's entirely likely that a change will need to be made to the repeater licence. Nobody in their right mind is going to commit to costly site application fees and rentals, not to mention utilities and other infrastructure, without knowing they have a working repeater to put there and a frequency allocation to operate it on.

I also think that the time frame currently imposed by the existing processes also encourages practices that aren't necessarily good for the Amateur community, such as requesting frequency allocations on more bands than are necessary up front, simply to avoid having to go through the same time consuming process again at a later date.

[VK4BS]

Well I nailed it - when I asked to see the agreement I was told "it is unavailable". It is hardly surprising that people get frustrated when, having taken the polite approach and been told basically to just wait, any request for real information is palmed off. How can any organisation believe it is reasonable to have service levels but not tell the customer what they are? Crikey at customs you can find out exactly what their target service deliveries are and if you look at the introduction to FOI you will see that the aim is to have ALL arms of government keep the public informed where possible.

And then to talk of an agreement impacting on the process but the agreement is "unavailable". Also to claim that the delay is because "At present the ACMA has a large backlog of assigned licence applications. It is taking approximately two months to process an application from the date of receipt." when every report I have had of repeater licence applications in recent years has had the same delay which tends to put the lie to it being a situation that exists only at present as opposed to a situation that has existed for some time and which has not been addressed.

While I can understand that maybe some things took longer in the past and some other issues are even more frustrating, that is no excuse for poor service levels and unacceptable efforts to resolve them. Maybe they could be blunt and say "we have had our budget ripped apart for political reasons and therefore you will suffer" in which case I would then complain to government and seek redress in other ways. But they don't say that. They claim a large backlog at present.

One of the problems in our society is that we are prepared to accept poor service which just encourages those that provide it to continue in the same way. The UK has an agency specifically to address these issues and it does so, even to the point of ordering compensation payments which certainly discourages repeat offenders (not just folklore but one of our club members is from the UK and has told of his experiences). Some years back I lived in Sweden for three years and when I returned to Australia I could not believe Australia's poor service level and quality control. Trouble is, after suffering it for years I have fallen for the trap of just accepting it. Well, not any more. All I am asking is that I get treated with respect and given a level of service I am entitled to and pay for. By the way, this is not an isolated case, just the latest.

Centrelink is also driving me crazy trying to sort out payments after my employer overpaid me and then clawed back the overpayments thus causing havoc with my aged pension payments. My employer drove me crazy telling me for weeks that I was not in a uniformed position so did not have certain entitlements even though they issued and recently updated my uniform. And so it goes.

One can understand the character that put his head out of his unit window and screamed "I'm not going to take it any more!"

On the other hand a company recently donated surplus radio equipment to our Rural Fire Brigade and another company was the catalyst in organising it. There are those that work in the interests of the community but it should be the norm, not the exception.

The bottom line is that these agencies are there to provide a public service and they seem to too easily forget that and take the view that we are beholden to them for any crumbs they throw our way.

Howard, VI4BS

[VK2AAH]

Howard,

What is this "agreement" you are seeking? I'm confused by what you are referring to... my understanding of the process is that the WIA checks & endorses the application & then submits this to the ACMA to licence. If they don't support it they will either reject it or bounce it back for amendment- in which case the hypothetical clock restarts. Am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying that there is something in writing that limits the time the WIA has before any licence application goes to the ACMA? How would that work when the person concerned is a volunteer who gives his/her time FREE to you and any other applicant? Don't get me wrong- I'm not condoning excessive delays but if you crack a whip on a volunteer that volunteer may insert your whip where the sun don't shine...

On the other hand if you are complaining about ACMA fair enough... if that is where the delay is happening. But ACMA a "community service"? Since when? They manage the radio spectrum- and they do it with the aim of covering costs (read: make a profit). AR operators stand well behind emergency services & carriers in any queue- so if you are expecting to be treated as equal to their business "dream on".

Regards,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2AAH]

Hi Don,

I'm not sure how this is any different to any other repeater/base station installation process. Crown Castle can take me months from initial application to approval... and they aren't alone. The whole process is often time consuming (if done "properly") & can be risky- and I'm not talking about AR at all. I've known a government department which paid over $10000 in application fees only to be told "sorry, site overloaded"... and never got the money back. It does make licencing tricky. I totally agree with you that it isn't for the faint hearted- or those who can't handle things not happening "today". But maybe we can come up with a better process that does streamline things- definitely worth having a try.

Regards,

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK7YXX]

G'day again Richard,

I understand the effort provided for free by the WIA voluteers and appreciate that effort; however, the way it was described to me was that it doesn't matter if you are a regular, conscript or volunteer, you're still expected to fight the same for the cause.

For good or bad, the WIA has been inserted into the licence approval process, and in accepting that role they must also share the responsibility for providing a timely service. If they are not up to the task they should reevaluate whether they have suitable resources to play that role. By the same token the ACMA should not be able to disassociate themselves from the initial part of the process just because it's being performed by a "delegate".

For my part I have never expected things to be done "today", tomorrow, or even next week. I don't think I'd be posting here if the exercise took two months overall, one for the WIA and one for the ACMA, or whatever split within that they see fit. However, that is clearly not the case and there is no way to pursue the issue officially until the ACMA exceeds their 90 day statutory requirement which, as far as I can see, starts after an unregulated, or at least undisclosed, amount of time with the WIA.

I'm all for coming up with a better process, and this thread will hopefully spark questions in the appropriate quarters. What I do know is that 6-10 weeks with the WIA and 8-10 weeks with the ACMA is not acceptable service, and there isn't even a guarentee of that. As responsible Amateurs we have no choice, the regulations are imposed on us and we must abide by them. In doing so the regulators have a responsibility to provide a reasonable process to enable us abide by those regulations. Many other things are regulated for safety, for example dangerous goods, firearms, driver's licences, racing licences, pilot's licences and such. None of the formalities for those take similar time frames.

Cheers

[VK4BS]

Nick, thanks for the kind words. Coming from you they mean something to me...

Howard

[VK4BS]

Richard

The agreement is the one ACMA told me requires Amateur Repeater Licences to be processed by the WIA prior to being passed to ACMA (see earlier post). As you probably know they have a contract with the WIA for examinations and selection of callsigns. That contract specifies, amongst other things, service levels that the WIA must adhere to.

Now agreements between organisations like ACMA and others can not be "handshake" agreements if they are to be enforceable. Furthermore if they are to be a required part of the process for an amateur repeater licence application (and they are - ACMA will not accept applications directly) then the nature and specifics of the agreement must be documented otherwise there is no way either organisation or an applicant can know for certain what is required of each party. If they are not documented then with time there will be no way of knowing what the agreement is about or even if it exists (other than in folklore). Additionally, how can an applicant know what decisions are to be made, what rights of appeal exist, what processes are involved and what service level can be expected?

So when ACMA officially tell me there is an agreement of this type then I believe it is not unreasonable to ask for a copy or for a location where I can find it. To be told that it is "unavailable" is nonsense. All they could do was state "A copy of the agreement is not available, however, the application process is clearly set out on the WIA’s website at http://www.wia.org.au/members/tac/repeaterlicence/". If you look at the process most of the issues I mentioned are not dealt with and the process does not even consider an application from an individual. Furthermore the time frames that are mentioned bear no resemblance to reality and there is no discussion of the time frame for the WIA's considerations although reading the document implies an application will be dealt with rapidly.

Last, but not least, if processing by the WIA is a required part of the amateur repeater licence application then that should be considered as part of the 90 days allowed under the Act. This is rejected by ACMA as it is an "agreement" and the WIA is not considered to be a "delegate" in this matter. However, as mentioned earlier it is a requirement set by them and they also conveniently forget that the WIA is a delegate for the recommendation of a repeater callsign which is part of the amateur repeater application process and must thus be taken into account.

Howard
VK4BS

[VK2AAH]

Hi Howard,

I can only go on what the link to the WIA website you posted says. The only reference to a time period I could see is 14 days for the ACMA component of the process. I couldn't find a period stipulated for the WIA's part of the process but I can see lots of opportunity for it to be stalled- such as the RABC's obligation to consult others. But if that is the process then that is the process... so long as people are kept in the loop.

Agreements can come in many forms Howard. I haven't seen it so I don't know what is in it but it could be very basic. If you haven't seen it either we are both only guessing its terms.

Regards,

Richard
VK2AAH