Why Do Modern Hams Need 400Watts?

[VK5ZD]

Thought for the day....

Have you checked just how much signal is required for your receiver to show 9+60db?
I did an S-Meter (should say guess meter) check on an FT-897. S9 was about right (~50uv). Everything else was completely wrong (e.g. it only to a 5db increase in signal to go from S1 to S6).

73
Iain

[VK7DR]

Richard, there are some fairly reasonable responses here to your question which cover most of the ground.
My own response is simple, Amateur Radio operators in most cases do not "need" 400w. It is simply the legal power limit in Oz. Nevertheless I feel it is a practical one. Therefore there is (for me anyway) no relevant need to justify whether I "need" it or not. I use it when I want to, when it provides a practical advantage - even under local conditions.

But such questions inevitably (and obviously) bring out castration fear in some hams.

And then we have the excluders, who would like to promote a "superpowerham" aristocracy based on how many questions on an examination paper people can memorise the answers to. (I know more than you do so I should be aloud to be even louder...?) LOL. Sorry, but that is just wanking.

And of course, we have to have a bit of "F" (and standard) call bashing thrown in as well. (Not that there isn't perhaps some justification for that, at times, I agree. Rules is rules after all. But 10 lousy watts? Come on!)

Stagnate and die? I don't think so. Who is watching? Who cares? We do what we do because we enjoy it. Some like digital modes, some like the extremes like EME, and some (like me) enjoy designing and building gear and antennas, and more particularly, using them to talk to others who are interested in my own interests. Amateur Radio is a traditional pursuit, full of great possibilities for everyone. Amateur Radio will die when the tradition within us dies, when those in power see that we have finally become a rabble without honour or pride. Pushing the limits is only one kind of experimentation.

And 400watts? It's enough. We certainly don't need any more. Do we need that much? From the answers here it would seem many people do, yes. But Richard, spectrum and power efficient modes? Come on, that's just one part of AR, not the future, nor the point, of it.

[VK2AAH]

Hi Justin,

This is drifting away from the subject more than a little but I'll throw this in for you. I've been involved in a number of site upgrades to multicoupling, the largest one being about 8 channels. Inevitably one particular agency almost always complains that "my EIRP has dropped" and "my coverage has been reduced". So at least once I've gone out and tested the coverage against the computer prediction (and a "before" test) and guess what? The coverage is actually enhanced. That is why a lot of old sites are gradually being multicoupled (Country Energy in particular has a program to upgrade their sites) because people aren't living in the real world when they believe they are radiating 83W EIRP AND receiving down to mute threshold. In fact due to tower clutter they would be radiating in a very unbalanced pattern & the site noise floor is likely to be some db above what it should be. As a result losses of 4 to 6db are irrelevent if you are picking up, conservatively, 10db improvement in site performance.

And let me give you a classic example of one orange coloured NSW agency... they used to whinge about multicoupling but don't now- they complained when they were forced to be combined at one site because they had to pull down the Polar 10dbi Sector Array (4 dipoles with a flat grid) fed with 50W! Oh dear, so much for a balanced system- 25W mobiles talking a base running 214W EIRP! Not happy when they were told to remove it! Another classic example is Telstra's installs at GRN sites- 6dbd BAs even when the coverage required call for a dipole... but oh yes the system is balanced- nonsense it is. Someone else pointed out it isn't how much power/signal being radiated but where you are putting it.

4db is absolutely nothing Justin- less than one S unit. In land mobile if you are expected to operate down to 4db above mute (or lets say -114 or -116) I would be shooting the system designer- we design for at worst -105dbm (or a full 15db above mute) though we don't always achieve that. Power is not the "be all" as a number have already pointed out- you are right that systems need to be balanced but you need to look beyond EIRP and look at the reality. Yes in EME, yes in TEP research, but the HF examples given by some are just (in the words of my Kiwi admirer) nonsense.

Regards,


Richard

[VK7ZE]

Richard,

The answer is simple – because we have choice.

A little like you deciding that Crabbet bloodlines are the best to use, because you have choice.

You probably feel that this gives you a competitive edge in a competitive industry.

If you didn’t have the desire to excel in this field then you could purchase your stock from the RSPCA shelter.

It is no different in amateur radio, ops try and obtain the highest level of performance available from within their available means . In Australia, especially from a HF contest point of view we are at a distinct geographic disadvantage and even though we have the choice to use 400w it doesn’t even come close to leveling the playing field. But we have the choice!

Would Australia have a contest community should power levels be set at 100watts? Probably not as it would even further alienate us from the rest of the world unless of course you are hell bent on changing them as well. I believe that has been tried before a couple of times before with disastrous consequences.

I am not sure of the exact numbers, but the relationship of qrm and power in Europe tha has been mentioned along the way is more likely attributed to the amount of operators and dx entities from within a given area. Maybe something like 50 entities within an area the size of Australia and Lord only knows how many ops.

Many Australians have already shown their amazing ingenuity to be able to compete on a world stage as far as new technology is concerned, but I honestly feel the reduction of power levels will not help assist any future ops in doing the same.

As far as HF is concerned not everyone has the ability or the resources to build 200ft towers and massive arrays, most probably don’t even have the space so they go to the next alternative – an amp, why? Because compared to leaving their current abode it is an attractive alternative and they have choice to do so.

The suggestion of taking away the privilege of choice is akin to you having the right to breed what you want taken away and having to resort to RSPCA stock.

Someone told me once that removal of choice is how civil wars are started.

I have strong beliefs with regard to what certain animal breed societies have done to the detriment of breeds over time, do I go around extolling my beliefs on those that have nothing but praise? The answer is no, because I still believe people have the right to freedom of choice?

Laurie
VK7ZE

[VK5AJL]

This is a little off topic because it says little about our need, or lack of it, for various power levels.

Yes, I have done a check. If you can read German there ishttp://www.s-meter.de/ and if not try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_meter In any case, it really doesn't matter. You are right, most rigs are calibrated to S9 and everything less is usually as you suggest but we are not talking S1 to S6. The MAXIMUM achievable is S9+17db given power and distance and PERFECT conditions. If I am such an idiot and have such a lousy antenna, I should not have picked up that much. Although there are a few 40m beams around, more use a dipole so, taking a g5rv as a reference, anthing as close to the ground as 10m is essentially omniidirectional (only 10db down off the end compared to broadside http://www.qsl.net/k2hq/40.htm) but I used a perfect dipole in space which is not. There is also the atmosphere so take away a few more db. There is also the fact that not 100% of signal is refelected when it bounces off the ionoshpere and some is also absorbed by the ground when it bounces back up again. My meter continues to what would be about +90 db but the calibrations stop at +60. This fellow's signal stayed over the 60 so, if my meter is accurate, it would actually have read +80db (or more) over 9. Brisbane is somewhat off the end of my dipole so there goes a few more db.

To anticipate further pedanticism, here is how I calculated the maximum. (To save space, only process described - do the figures yourself.) My calculations are based on 313m which is the distance over which radiated power in watts produces the same figure in volts of electric field strength ie. 1w produces 1v/m using two parallel reference dipoles (1/2 wave infinitely thin wire). Radio waves travel in one dimension but spread out in 2 so the distance squared rule applies. S9 (the calibrated figure) represents an electric field strength of 50.2 uV

Further, there was the other reference of a fellow with a barefoot 100w radio in the same approximate location at the same approximate time producing signals peaking at S5. They reported me at about the same. 40m signals can fade quickly and return just as quickly but no such thing was evident at the time. So, even if I had a lousy S meter, we are still talking about many db difference.

I was conservative on all my calculations. If anyone is still seriously trying to argue 10w from Brisbane can produce such huge signals in Adealaide then I suggest you read the books and do the maths yourself.

And then we have the excluders, who would like to promote a "superpowerham" aristocracy based on how many questions on an examination paper people can memorise the answers to. (I know more than you do so I should be aloud to be even louder...?)

Which is precisely why I suggested a nominal period where one license class must be held before the next. It gives you the chance to make an idiot of yourself, and thus be excluded, and why I suggest all exams should be a LOT harder and a LOT longer. In any case, it was only a basic suggestion. If such a suggestion were to be taken up I would expect further details such as references from neighbours, other amateurs, community leaders and so forth to be included as well as further conditions such as what the extra power can be used for. It was only a suggestion anyway. If you don't like it, don't support it.

[VK5ATN]

It's a fair question. I used to wonder myself once. I worked my first 50 countries using a TenTec Argonaut 509 (5 watts) and either a 3 element yagi for 10 or a 2 element quad for 15. Mind you, conditions were good (circa 1979) and I had an ideal location. More than a few of those contacts were from DXpeditions where the competition from California Kilowatts was obvious. I can't remember too many times when I walked away from a dog pile without getting in the log.

In time I got a Yaesu FL110 amp and this lifted my power to the the novice limit of 30 watts. DXCC soon followed, and I wondered why people even needed 100 watts. After I upgraded to AOCP I was offered the chance to get an amplifier which would give me full legal power. I found it useful at times on 20, 40 and 80 metres especially during contest work. It was also useful for simply exploding into a dog pile, getting the magic "Five and Nine" and getting on with something else (Yawn, I wonder what's on TV.....?)

Now my QTH has changed and I have power line noise, the joy of every oscillator in every device in the neighbourhood spread right across the spectrum and a very limited antenna. I'm back to 100 watts and it's hard work. Will I run 400 again. No. Too hard, too many risks involved with all the electronic crap in the locality. It will be sold in the near future.

There certainly are times where modern hams could need 400 watts. But for some, it will never really be necessary. A good location, modest gain antennas and smart operating will achieve good results every time. However in other situations, yep it may be helpful, or even essential. It depends on your situation and what the market will stand, both domestically and locally.

I'm glad I started in AR with QRPp. I'm glad I had the opportunity to use 400 watts later in the story. But I still value above all else those early days when time and again I would revel in the astonishment from operators in Europe and US at what I was using and how it worked out at their end.

People still apparently want to drive V8's. Some may have a good reason for doing so. Most probably haven't except that they want to. Most of them could manage the same end result with a 2 litre four or something smaller. But then you wouldn't want to tow a big caravan or a boat would you.

I guess it's much the same with 400 watts. Some people need it, most probably won't.

Having said all that, I hope I don't depreciate the value of my redundant amplifier too much

73
Terry
VK5ATN (formerly VK5NTF)

[VK4TS]

without the need of calculations - if the full call in question in this extremely dubious argument from a person who calls themselves the mad scientist wants to refer a G5RV as a sample antenna and not allow for any variations in antenna between parties other than to bag a foundation licensee I think the amateurs creed has taken a battering over this thread..what in the world the radiation pattern of a G5RV has got to do with this discussion is beyond me other than to prove CUT and PASTE is alive and well...

"I'm probably going to cop a total bollocking for raising this but what the heck."

It was started by someone who in the first post openly admitted it was a inflammatory topic who then got upset with any response that was not in his line and then we have a poster calling himself a mad scientist who wants to claim that a F call was 60 db over and then want to pompously tell the world that S9 plus 17db is as high as it could possibly be...fella's fella's -

This easily an area where a dipole at the wrong or right angle and height above ground can exhibit ridiculously high levels of signal .. the classic cloud burner - low height LF dipole for short range QSOs refer notes from CEBIK...without any idea what antenna in use by both stations or the coax losses its pretty hard to make informed judgement - something that many of the 80/40 local chat crew are good at...

OK I said it was going to be my last post on the topic but I couldn't help myself defend the F calls....

[VK5AJL]

I suggest you read my post a LOT more carefully. I DID NOT REFER TO A G5RV AS A REFERENCE ANTENNA. I used it only as an example of how directional or otherwise a dipole is 10m above the ground. I was not bagging an F call. I was bagging someone using well over their limit.

Learn to read. Lets see your maths on how such a signal can occur.

Let me also say,:-

1) 10w for a foundation license is a good figure. A foundation license is for learning, not DXing.
2) 100w is a good figure for a standard license. It allows you to learn more and allows some DXing.
3) 400w is a good figure for advanced licenses because it also facilitates other activities such as, but not confined to, tropo work or some EME.
4) 1000w could be useful in some circumstances but some level of community responsibility should need to be shown as well as technical knowledge.

If I hear an F call using 10w calling CQ, I let them have a go rather than blot them out. I have been known to hear one calling CQ on one frequency and telling them of an international contact calling somewhere else in the same band. It seemed not many do this because he sounded very thankful. There are others willing to share the bands because a vk3 station one night said, "That vk5 station, have another go" when I tried but failed to make contact with a German. I made it second time around so thanks to whoever it was. Despite this, there are cowboys with huge amps who don't care who they blot out.

As far as competition is concerned, I am reminded of a comment made by one of the Williams sisters (forgot which one) at the Australian Open Tennis. She was asked about how difficult it was to play in the heat and her reply was that it was just as difficult for her opponent. If everyone in a competition is limited to say 50w, then we have a more level playing field where the one with the best antenna, ingenuity, operating practice, luck and so forth will be more likely to win rather than the one with the most money. If you want to have competitions for those who build their own amplifiers, fine.

[VK4TS]

it is very dangerous to argue with idiots

Although it is not widely known, Charles Darwin in his lifetime produced seven editions of his classic study, On the Origins of Species. Inevitably, however, modern editions of this landmark work are based on the first edition. Surely, this is odd, since presumably, the later revisions would represent a clearer and more complete version of his argument than his initial effort.
Unfortunately, Darwin kept reworking On the Origin of Species not so much to improve his theories as to respond to his critics, who were numerous and vociferous. In particular, these men were enamored of the nineteenth-century concept of "types" in nature; Darwin;s theory was inadequate, they said, because it did not incorporate this vital idea. Accordingly, Darwin increasingly recast his argument in terms of "types"; as result, modern readers find the later editions cluttered with irrelevant and antiquated notions and turn instead to the vigor and clarity of the original version.

The moral of the story is that it is very dangerous to argue with idiots. Not only are you unlikely to persuade them, but you are likely to lose sight of what was valuable and significant in your first argument.

Ah the joys of cut and paste....

[VK5AJL]

So, you are calling me an idiot now and trying to get off topic with personal vituperation. That's the best sign there is I am right. Still haven't seen your calculations.

[VK4TS]

Sorry John ? Calling you an idiot ? what could have given you that idea ?....no that was just showing my prowess in cut and paste...oh and thanks for word of the day I really did have to look that one up...

[VK5AJL]

All I have been getting at is, I think the current regulations are fine as they are except more power is justified sometimes but not to just anyone or everyone. Most of the time, amateurs use sense with power but there are quite a few cowboys. These people need to be kept away from 1kW because they will end up giving the rest of us a bad name when they aim that sort of power on 2m into their neighbors TV antenna. I keep local stuff down to 1W where I can. F calls should be given more than a fair go but shouldn't abuse their privelages any more than the rest of us.

Having built everything from the back of my radios to the ends of the antennas, I do admire those who build their own stuff and, if you are one of those, then I admire you as well. People who just buy boxes, I don't believe, are being really true to the hobby which is supposed to be about radio experimentation and learning. Any idiot can plug in a box or buy an antenna. I am amazed at how many I hear on air saying they "bought" an antenna. I have never paid for one except materials.

AND I DO APOLOGISE, MY FIGURES WERE WRONG. I miscounted the zeros. In actual fact, the maximum achievable at such power levels and distance is a lot less than s9+17. Perhaps you should check them again, I might have miscounted again.

At 313m 1W from a true reference antenna (infintely thin 1/2 wave dipole in a vacuum) produces 1V/m received by another parallel to the transmitter. (reference above)

Brisbane is 1600000 metres away so, using distance squared rule multiples power by 3.8 x 10-8. Started with 10w so multiply this by 10 to get 3.8 x 10-7v/m. That's only 380nV/m not 380 uV/m ie. s2 if, as VK5ZD pointed out, we all have perfectly reading S meters, which we don't. I would expect to see higher readings than that but, given S meters are usually calibrated at S9, there is now way for 10w to be pushing well and truly over.

I did say earlier, I was just as annoyed at other license classes using well over their limit. The Brisbane example was only that. It just happened to be an F call.

I think we have been in agreement more than you think.

[VK2AAH]

Oh Brother...

Between the nutty VK4 who seemingly can only play the man & not the ball, and now Laurie who somehow connects my hobby of horse breeding to amateur radio. Don't go there Laurie lest you want a bloodbath on this forum. People have a right to come on this forum to talk about amateur radio without having unrelated hobbies & past times dragged into discussions. Beware where that may lead.

But to answer you Laurie- rules exist in most hobbies and rules change as time goes on. People have the choice of living by the rules or moving on. The regs say that Advanced ops are permitted 400W PEP and to my knowledge there has been no-one suggest that is changing. However I have just as much right to raise one option to reduce the maximum output as the buffoon from Queensland has in advocating 1kw- you can disagree or not but you aren't going to deny my right to raise the issue. There have been some excellent responses to my question, not all agreeing with me, but they have raised excellent points. I thought that was the purpose of such forums, or are we not allowed to canvas contentious issues? Are people so insecure or intolerant? That certainly isn't the image of amateur radio I grew up with.

When someone starts referencing Charles Darwin on a radio forum you start to understand why Darwin determined we came from the apes... some seem to only be recent converts to the species.

Regards,


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK7ZE]

Richard,

Now just hold your horses there a minute fella.
I don’t know you from a bar of soap and if you can’t see a simple analogy for what it’s worth then more fool you.

Don't go there Laurie lest you want a bloodbath on this forum.

Beware where that may lead.

Your reply reads very much like a threat and if it is you have bitten more than you can chew.

I read with interest the thread and out of curiosity I looked up your call on QRZ as I have never heard you on air. From this I ascertained your involvement in the horse industry. Realizing a common interest I put it in such a way that you should have related too. There is no way you can read from my post any sort of personal attack (unlike your reply) unless you suffer from gross personal insecurities.

Do not concern yourself with the trouble of replying as this will be my second and last post on this forum. MY CHOICE………

No wonder I do not partake in this style of discussion – as you so nicely put it – Oh Brother………….

Now where is that DX?

[VK2AAH]

Laurie,

I note you joined this forum today, and the first thing you do is bring up a hobby I have that has nothing to do with amateur radio. It wasn't a threat, it was a strongly worded piece of advice because if you can do that to me people can bring up other hobbies in a negative way, such as scout masters or priests. It wasn't necessary or relevent any more than using an analogy like speed limits on roads- like 60km/h roads being dropped to 40km/h. So blinking what? So anyone that is a ham and a revhead had better look out as their views may be questioned by you? Come on- where does that end?

I don't care if you have a problem with horse breeders- email me privately or via an appropriate forum but don't bring it up here. It isn't relevent & it isn't appropriate, and if you want a blue about it believe me I'm not going to step back.

Regards,


Richard

[VK2AAH]

Oh and Laurie- I come up on 40 every few days, 80 mostly on weekends, and when I finish my antenna project & a tuner repair I will come up on other bands. I was licenced as VK2ZLL in 1982, hold the E&C and worked in radio since 1981. If you want to make a sched with me on 40 or 80 just email me privately if you want proof that I exist. But then as you have raised I have a horse stud to run so I don't sit by the radio 24/7, you try doing that when you work in the business and stay sane.

Regards,


Richard

[VK4TS]

John,

To help the modelling could you please advise what frequencies were used and what time of day and month of the year was it ?

Did you happen record the antenna heights of the Full call and the foundation and the antennas they had in use ? If you would like to reply off forum, the call-signs of the stations in question I will also run an analysis of the QTHs if we can assume they were both at home location as per ACMA that would be good...

When I was a novice (VK2NDK) using a FT101E to a five element yagi on a good tower from a great location I was constantly in the top scorers of VK contests and had to cop flak from full calls back then so it does touch a raw nerve...

[VK7ZE]

Richard,

I do not know where one of the replies went. New to this.

I made the comment that if you do not wish the two hobbies to at all interact then you should maybe consider removing the link to the horse web site from your QRZ page.

I also mentioned that if you couldn't see the simple analogy for what it was worth then I feel sorry for you.

73

Laurie

FINITO

[VK4CZ]

Richard VK2AAH wrote..... I'm probably going to cop a total bollocking for raising this but what the heck.

snip

Pin pulled, left arm back, THROW!

Richard... in amateur radio, as in life, we all have choices to make. Some of these will be good choices that support not only our own agenda but that of our peers. And others will leave us sitting like 'a shag on a rock' (maybe I should be careful of using analogies or comparisons).

Pulling the trigger on a 'small pistol' aimed at the 'big guns' will always ends in blood shed.

I think it's time to quietly walk away and accept that this mightn't have been one of those better decisions given your opening statement!

And yes, as an active contestor and DXer I support the notion for raised PEP limits to our Advanced licence class to aide in the achievement of our competitive position relative to those in the Nthrn Hemisphere.

[VK2AAH]

Hi Scott,

Sorry but I'll never live life worried about how some will react to a contentious question. Most I think took that snippet in the lighthearted way it was intended. If you regard a tiff on the web as bloodshed then you really must live a sheltered life! It drew out some very good responses, some pretty ordinary responses, but any question to a large group of individuals will do that. Big guns? Really, you seem to put tickets on some that haven't been earned. I don't view myself as a weapon, just someone who was game to ask a question that others weren't.

So thanks for your advice but I'm not going anywhere.

Regards,


Richard
VK2AAH