Future of 50-52MHZ -deafening silence!

[VK3AUU]

John, VK5AJL, Please expand your argument.
Why do we need 50 to 54 MHz?

David
VK3AUU

[VK5AJL]

OK but I am very pressed for time. Off to vk2 in the morning so this will be my last post for a week or so. ("Hoorah" I hear logger fans say and "oh no" all the vk2s)

If the sun really starts to do its thing, there will be a lot more stations readable on 6m expanding the necessary bandwidth. More stations, more room required. The same on 10m. The band is quiet now but, if that damned sun would hurry up and charge up the atmosphere, that band should open up properly and a spare frequency would be hard to find.

50.3-52 is pretty quiet here most of the time but it is needed for times when it isn't. Interstate interferrence is more of a problem for 6m repeaters than 70cm so they can't be duplicated state to state. There goes a big chunk of 52-54.

Beacons also need to be kept separate state to state and country to country. There goes another chunk of 52-54.

Its no good just making arguments assuming current conditions will remain constant. They won't. (I hope and have my fingers crossed.) We need 50-54 for when they aren't (constant).

So, hands up all those people in vk1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 who would like 400w pep in 50-52. Hands up all those who want to ditch 50-52 or 52-54. Then, which piece do we ditch?

[VK2AAH]

Hams? Ego? John... really! April Fools Day is still a month away... Boy I haven't detected any lack of ego here... and good on people who have done something to crow about having a good crow but let's not get carried away with ourselves!

Spectrum should be assigned based on (a) ability to use without impact on others, and (b) need. Nothing else. Prove the case & don't fall in to silly chest thumping that hams are God's gift to radio. Most of us who are professionals gained most of our knowledge within our professional careers & are AR operators because we love it. Your argument is fatally flawed.

Do you need the whole 4MHz? If so, why? Why don't you take your own advice to Defence & lead by example... if Defence can do with less spectrum, why can't amateurs? Don't go there, it will bite the hobby in the bum. I'm currently trying to find UHF spectrum for a major community event- only ONE available UHF pair in the entire Sydney basin. I can demonstrate a legitimate need for more spectrum at the expense of amateurs so don't make it a battle of interests as amateurs will most certainly lose. Spectrum in urban areas is like gold and it is time for people to realise it.

Regards,

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4WDM]

Whoa! Cool it!


My original post related to: snaring primary status in 50-52MHZ once it is vacated by TV

Like everyone else I got pulled into a spurious argument about the the whole 50-54, but there is no need to discuss or argue about 52-54, or whether we really need 4MHZ

We cannot do any meaningful arguing, discussing, justifying, etc until we know what the WIA is bringing to the ACMA. It may well be that they won't be asking for more space, just primary status in the sub-band we have now.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4GHZ]

Well said Wayne.
The distractions and smoke screens are counter productive, but that's human nature.

[VK5AJL]

I want to see 50-52 given primary status for Amateur Radio and I want to see it without the loss of 52-54. Like the original post, I would like to hear more noise from the WIA about it and some indication from the ACMA as to what they intend to do.

We have just a bit less than 3% of the VHF spectrum with just over 2% primary status. I didn’t only mention the military. Check out the ABC’s allocation as well as other Govt depts as see what they use it for. How about some justification from them? Even Russell Crowe has spectrum (even if very small) and all he had to do was pay money.

AND BIT OFF TOPIC BUT AN ANSWER

Some people enter Amateur Radio as a hobby. Fine. I have nothing against that. After the majority of my working life in electronics with only a small proportion of radio, I did as well.

Then again, Alf Traeger was an amateur operator (callsign vk5ax). He was one before he did his experiments and developed his radio. It was Amateur Radio where he learned and developed most of what he knew. Before entering Amateur Radio he was an automotive mechanical and electrical engineer. He was one in a million but without Amateur Radio he might not have been. That one example is worth hundreds of hobbyists. I am also keen to do some experiments with wide band FM on 6m with a new idea I have in mind. Where would you like me to do it?

[VK3ALB]

How many of you have contacted the WIA and asked them what they are doing about the 6m band?

[VK2AAH]

Well John when your house burns down or the police don't turn up to your call for help... if you want to make it in to a fight between hams & the rest of spectrum users (particularly government services) you will wear the consequences. Why do you think most governments implement trunking? Not enough spectrum for individual agency networks... I can fix that easy- withdraw 420-440 from the amateur service. They can demonstrate need, so what will the WIA argue for 50-52MHz? I am in favour of 50-52MHz becoming primary for the amateur service because there is a need (now or future) but I think arguments like yours are counterproductive.

Alex Traeger eh? Yes he was a great pioneer as was John Moyle, but there are a lot of others doing great things that you don't hear about in this big modern world.


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK5AJL]

I'm not turning it into a fight. You are. I have not argued for any additional allocation. I have simply said, if we have to justify ourselves to keep something we already have, why not everyone else? If they can, great.

You are the one who asked why we need 4MHz and I listed the band plan to demonstrate what we use it for. Here is vk5, the fire, police, ambulance, ses, cfs and the rest all use a very small piece of spectrum. They all use the SA Govt mobile phone network.

From previous posts, you seem to be assuming everybody uses the radio in the same manner as yourself. They don't. There are little bits of CW here and there, little bits of digital between, some voice elsewhere and some pictures in several modes and for all sorts of purposes. See the regs also 6(a). Why don't you buy yourself a CB?

OK, you want to do away with 420-440, why not 146-148 then 52-54. Even then, the same argument would still exist. Extending your argument to its logical conclusion you might as well restrict the entire amateur allocation to the 10m band.

Now that would be counter productive.

[VK2AAH]

John,

Rather than getting your knickers any more knotted, please read Roger Harrison's advice. He speaks with some knowledge & wisdom on how to argue the case. You were the one throwing stones at other services, not me. Heed Roger's advice and argue the merits of your case instead of trying to argue that others are somehow getting a better deal... you will lose that argument.

I wasn't the only one who asked you why 4MHz is needed but so far you haven't answered the question anyway! I guess the answer is "because". Shame on me for asking for a justification.

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4GHZ]

Again, can we please focus on the core topic - achieving primary status on 50MHz.
At this stage, who cares whether the allocation is 300kHz wide or larger.

As per my previous satirical post, most ham allocations are unjustifiably too large anyway, so beginning to question why we would want (or should have) 4MHz at 50Mhz is counter productive at this stage.

If it's larger than we we can justify, then bonus.


edit:
I intend to be ruthless from here on.
Any posts deemed to be off-topic will be deleted or moved elsewhere.

[VK4TU]

OK - Why we need to be primary 50MHz - 52MHz?
All ham bands are most useful when aligned worldwide so that we can experiment with things like EME/satellites/propagation which don't follow national borders. 50MHz is at the boundary of HF and VHF and research conducted by amateurs here is important in our understanding of the ionosphere and how it works. This is recognised by more and more governments with 40MHz beacon allocations and 70MHz amateur bands. Primary status allows us to run higher ERP which allows more experimentation in modes with higher path losses. 50MHz does experience F2 and Es propagation so it isn't particularly useful for line of sight applications, higher frequencies experience less interference from users in other countries.
Anyone think of other reasons?

Joe, VK4TU

[VK5AJL]

I have been through both ACMA and WIA websites looking for information on the future of 50-52. It might be there but I didn't stumble on anything. They are not only both silent but secretive as well. (It seems obvious we will be restricted to 430-440) Perhaps if enough of us ask the minister, someone might get an answer other than what a wonderful job the government is doing for us.

Has anyone actually tried? http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/contact and asked about the future status of 50-52. It gives you the email address minister@dbcde.gov.au I'm off to construct my email.

Any posts deemed to be off-topic will be deleted or moved elsewhere

... agreed ... but if we don't want it, need it or care about it, what difference does the silence make? I have found silence is a tool used by politicians when they have bad news.

[VK2ZRH]

John - on 3 March 2010, Dale VK4SIX wrote:

The person to contact within the WIA is the President Michael Owens VK3KI. Michael is the person within the organisation who makes representations to the ACMA regarding amateur radio for the WIA. email Michael at president@wia.org.au

Alternatively you could contact the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy
Hon Stephen Conroy minister@dbcde.gov.au and outline your case.

Followed by Adam VK4CP:

IMO, the WIA is the first port of call to;
a) firstly, establish whether they are aware of the impact the closure of AU Ch0 TXs has on our 6M

band (not everybody is a 6M enthusiast)
b) if they are aware of it, do they have a strategy on how to approach this yet?
c) what input are they seeking from the wider amateur community?
d) what is their time line?

I reiterate what I then advised:

[Dale's] first sentence is the correct - more fruitful - approach.

Action on [contacting the Minister] will most likely be fruitless. It will be referred to the ACMA. As no 'action' on reallocation of 50-54 MHz is currently in train, any reply (should you be so lucky) will be in anodyne terms. The WIA is the recognised "peak body" representing the Australian radio amateur community to the ACMA. Best to go there first. Find out the facts of the present situation. At least one WIA director is an ex-ACMA employee (and has a technical background, to boot). All of this is no secret. Spend a little time on the WIA website.

An onslaught of uncoordinated lobbying to federal politicians at this juncture would likely be unproductive at best and counter-productive at worst (think about it for a moment . . . what would they understand of the issue/s you raise ?). But then, for those who hanker after bullet holes in their feet, don't let me deter you.

Disclosure: this is an area in which I have worked professionally for a couple of decades - from "both sides of the fence".

So you've:

". . . been through both ACMA and WIA websites looking for information on the future of 50-52. It might be there but I didn't stumble on anything. They are not only both silent but secretive as well."

It seems like you're unconciously expecting the ACMA and WIA websites each to be some sort of corporate blog (as in: "here's what we're thinking this week; here's what we thought earlier").

In addressing any 'issue', the FIRST thing to do is 'get at the facts'. Adam VK4CP has offered good guidance in this regard (see above).

Have you got a copy of the Australian Spectrum Plan ? Get it here: http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_2713

Have you got a copy of the ACMA's Five-year Spectrum Outlook ? Get it here: http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_311686

Have you emailed the WIA to find out which director or advisory group is dealing with spectrum planning issues and what they may have to say ?

Further disclosure: I am a member of the WIA but do not hold any office in the organisation.

Perhaps if enough of us ask the minister, someone might get an answer other than what a wonderful job the government is doing for us.

Has anyone actually tried? http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/contact and asked about the future status of 50-52. It gives you the email address minister@dbcde.gov.au I'm off to construct my email.

A bit of 'homework' might save you a few (metaphorical) bullet holes in your feet.

It seems, however, you've decided on your course of action. Go ahead; make your day.

Posted in the interests of informed action.

73, Roger Harrison VK2ZRH

[VK5AJL]

I would like to know what the future of 50-52 is. I have noticed a deafening silence as well.

My way of ASKING the minister's opinion might not work but waiting for either the ACMA or WIA to make a statement definately doesn't work.

Yes, I have a copy of those documents and quite a few more. It is interesting to note how few submissions were made by the WIA compared to other groups in these and other documents. I couldn't find mention of the WIA on any ACMA page or document, although it has to be there somewhere.

If we all just shut up (inc the WIA) they will assume we don't care and just give it to someone else. If that is your wish, fine.

I am NOT a 6m enthusiast. I merely expressed an opinion that I wanted to know why the deafening silence in the interests of fellow operators who are, just as I would like their support if the ACMA wants to take away my favourite bands.

If the WIA is supposed to represent us, let them represent us and make some sort of statement instead of DEAFENING SILENCE.

Have you emailed the WIA to find out which director or advisory group is dealing with spectrum planning issues and what they may have to say ?

If you think this is a good idea then why haven't you, or did you? If you did what did they say? What have you done except show your ability to cut and paste?

I have have constructed and sent my emails but not to the WIA, ACMA OR the Minister of communications. I'll see what happens.

[VK4WDM]

Is the deafening silence continuing, or has somebody, or anybody heard what is being proposed for this chunk of spectrum once Ch O goes? Any signs of a policy document or other evidence that the WIA moving on the matter?

Please - no arguments about whether we need or deserve this spectrum. Just answer the questions! Or else Adam will get

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK3PF]

Hi all,

Something is happening. I cannot say more at present, but have just seen the "Comment" column for the June issue of Amateur Radio - an advantage of a small task (?) that consumes a large chunk of my hobby time on behalf of WIA members. The WIA has been attempting to stir up some action from ACMA. Now we need to see the response from above. The June issue will hopefully be out at the end of May. The ACMA response - we will all need to wait.

Regards,

Peter VK3PF

[VK5ZD]

Hi

In an attempt to put an end to the seemingly endless speculation on what the WIA may or may not do, I sent them email asking what, if any, action they intend to take on the matter. The reply was:

Thank you for your email in connection with the 6 metre band and the cessation of Channel 0 activities.

The issue of the future use of the analogue TV channels once these close is to be the subject of a review by the Department (the digital dividend). The Department is supposed to be releasing a discussion paper this year, but it has not happened yet. Once this paper is released that will be the time for input from the WIA (and others) to recover the use of Channel 0 spectrum for full amateur use.

Regards
Geoff Atkinson VK3AFA
Secretary WIA

73
Iain

[VK4QB]

Hi All,
I must put in my 2C here. I think that the 4 Mhz spectrum width we hope to regain is too wide. It was good many years ago when we were the only users at around this frequency, but times have changed and we must change too. Ii would appear that we could use less band but it must be compatible with other countries, possibly 50 - 53mhz . Do we really need to have 53 - 54 mhz ? I think that this is a bit greedy when there is no need for this amount of spectrum. However, if there is no requirements for this band spectrum then go for it. We will have to wait and see what the ACMA proposes.
Brian 4QB

[VK7DR]

I think what you need to remember is that 50-52 Mhz is and will likely remain part of the VHF band 1 broadcasting allocation "Channel 0".
Unless the actual channel allocation is relinquished, it will remain subject to proposals for broadcasting use particularly by digital radio services and can never be allocated as primary to amateur radio.
I wonder just what possible proposal amateurs could make which would see the dismissal of a 2mhz broadcasting allocation in their favour?
Even if there is no allocated use of 50-52 Mhz I can't see it ever being dropped from the current spectrum plan as primary broadcasting.
I think amateurs who like to use 6m had better get used to the idea that the ACMA has more things to concern itself with than demanbds for the de-allocation of spectrum already set for particular usage.
There is already a proposal to use the VHF band 1 and 2 broadcasting channel allocations for future digital radio use. It would take a powerful argument indeed to have channel "0" dropped from this spectrum allocation.

Rob.