ACMA WRAP on HIGH POWER TRIAL

[VK2CSW]

FWIW,

I am also to blame, as I did not apply.

I don't have the equipment or the cash reserves to take the punt on a trial.

I have never had the opportunity to run more than 100w.

I didn't think it was worth doing, as I thought that if I was audited and they checked my equipment and log then I would feel fraudulent.

I also felt it was a waste of my money and ACMA's resources to apply for a permit I would never be in the position to use.

How many advanced licensees would be in the same position?

I enjoyed the challenge of studying (a long time after the last time I did serious study) so that is why I continued onto advanced, not so much for the privileges but for the challenge.

[VK2AVR]

Say a question that springs to mind is why are you involved in the high power trial discussion when you are a standard call? I would assume it would only be really of interest to the advanced licencees. Of course quite possibly you are going to upgrade?

Oh I forgot, this is ham radio. A standard call's not allowed to have an opinion because the 1kW trial is only available to advanced calls

I will upgrade to advanced, but I'm not interested in running 1kW. Not at this point in time, I live in a unit and the separation distances are much too small. Despite not having any personal interest in QRO, I think having a 1kW licence is a great idea. I just think that giving high power to hobbyists that are ill-prepared to use it safely is a bad idea. Hopefully the WIA's education initiative as a result of this trial will produce some solid improvement in knowledge and if we get another chance to try out higher power we won't screw it up again.

[VK2TS]

Say a question that springs to mind is why are you involved in the high power trial discussion when you are a standard call? I would assume it would only be really of interest to the advanced licencees. Of course quite possibly you are going to upgrade?

Oh I forgot, this is ham radio. A standard call's not allowed to have an opinion because the 1kW trial is only available to advanced calls

I will upgrade to advanced, but I'm not interested in running 1kW. Not at this point in time, I live in a unit and the separation distances are much too small. Despite not having any personal interest in QRO, I think having a 1kW licence is a great idea. I just think that giving high power to hobbyists that are ill-prepared to use it safely is a bad idea. Hopefully the WIA's education initiative as a result of this trial will produce some solid improvement in knowledge and if we get another chance to try out higher power we won't screw it up again.

Hi Geoff

I think your blanket statements are extremely naive. And there is no need to get upset i was only asking. This is the problem with these forums is everyone is ready for a argument.

My self performed EMR audit was accurate and compliant. My tower is over 10 Metres above ground level and not accessible by the public. It is behind a locked gate. Have you calculated your exclusions zones at your lower power level? Even F Calls must as part of their licence conditions. I have not seen the ACMA since my application and a desk audit will not help them as they dont know where my antennae are located. Consequently I am very dubious about the reasons given. I have actually personally organised an RF survey on a Commerical high profile site in this area with accompaning ARPANSA certification and site manual so i am not totally new to this. I bet there are quite a few others who took part in the trial who had also had commercial experience.

Let me ask has anyone done an EMR calculation on a 2m/70cm handheld radio or a mobile amateur set up? They can and never will comply. Will they ban all hand held transceivers ie: Police, Security guards, shopping centre cleaners etc etc?

Incidentally the ACMA said that a 1000Watt power level was not the norm.

I did a quick bit of research and found the following for some sample countries

• Canada - 2250Watts
• USA - 1500Watts
• Israel – 1500Watts
• New Zealand - 1000Watts
• Japan – HF – 1000Watts
• Netherlands – 1000Watts
• Spain – 1000Watts
• Belgian – 1000Watts
• Germany – 750Watts
• Indonesia – 500Watts
• Italy – 500Watts
Australia, South Africa, Malaysia, the UK and India 400Watts

You know why we have a 400watt limit? It is because of the poms. Note all the 400watt countries are either current or ex Commonwealth parts of the British empire.

Anyway food for thought.

Cheers

[VK2AAH]

Tony,

If you read through the Standards (though I wouldn't wish that on you) all your comments are answered in those many documents... handheld devices below a certain output (7 or 8Watts I think?) are deemed to comply... Mobile antennas need to comply and that is why many agencies don't have bonnet/boot mounted antennas any more- I can show you the results that were physically measured, not just calculated, for the major vehicle types where I work. It IS a big deal & not just for hams.

And yes I did my compliance statement for my good mate at ACMA who threatened to come for a cup of coffee... sent him the calcs as soon as I set my station up. It isn't hard or time consuming to do. As I now only have a very modest VHF/UHF station EMR is no longer an issue of concern for me. When I set myself back up I hope to be able to run 400Watts, more than enough for me.

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2AVR]

I think your blanket statements are extremely naive. And there is no need to get upset i was only asking. This is the problem with these forums is everyone is ready for a argument.

OK, sorry I assumed you were having a dig

Have you calculated your exclusions zones at your lower power level?

HF station non-existant but when (if!) it becomes operational I will be operating modes with 25 watts or less average power. That implies an exclusion zone of 3 metres across the bands taking 6dBi as the max gain (with an OCF dipole at modest height, I doubt I would get above this but I will simulate it before I put it up, the higher bands get a bit lobey).

An interesting question is does "up a tree" count as a place accessible by the general public? I can understand the concern for a ground mounted vertical as someone could walk up and touch it, hence the example of having a locked gate. However, somebody could decide that they want to climb over a locked gate to have a look at an antenna just the same as they could decide to climb a tree to look at one. A locked gate does indicate "do not proceed" so should a tree that is supporting an antenna in an unfenced yard have a sign on it saying "do not climb"?

Mobile 2m/70cm antenna is boot-mounted and it's 2 metres from the driver's seat. Interesting comments by Richard on agency mobile antennas, if I didn't have a nice car I would have a roof antenna but I just can't bring myself to start drilling holes in it. I stick to low power as much as possible given the antenna is visible from inside the cabin.

Interesting stats from around the world, all we can do is hope we're given another shot.

[VK2LK]

Oh well. I participated in the trial as it was just a checkbox on the form for my new callsign which I had to submit anyway.. Unfortunately I never found the spare money for a linear so I just left it at that.

In the end I was audited too. I read the regs, did the calculations on my small setup, sent them through, followed up with a friendly phone call to the ACMA, The guy said "thanks, thats fine" and received a letter a few months later saying I passed the audit.

Yay I thought! Thats great news!

A week later I get another letter saying that due to the reasons listed above in the first post, the high power trial will not be continuing....

[VK2AAH]

Geoff,

I'm not aware of ACMA enforcing EMR compliance on mobiles... if they did it would cause some problems. It would come down to whether they would permit the use of occupational limits for within the car (assuming that the person who drives the car is aware and educated in the impact of EMR) but there is the thorny issue of passengers. They also need to allow for a modest duty cycle given that the person would be driving most of the time & talking much less... Clearly there is no way to prevent the public approaching the antenna but their exposure would be very brief so this can be taken into account. I wouldn't suggest running 1kW mobile... that could be unhealthy!

But I'm digressing...

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4DU]

Reality check time.

Those who want to run 1 kW and more do so, now. And have always done so.

A properly engineered kW, out of suburbia, is no problem.

Which is why, as others have pointed out, those who run more than a kW would not go anywhere near this trial.

Amateurs will never get a blanket approval for more than 400w. All ACMA have to do is wave the numbers at us.

Richard's point re a cadre of properly educated Advanced class amateurs having access to a kW is valid. Perhaps the WIA could negotiate that - i.e. said amateurs have to do an EMR/high power RF engineering course.

[VK4WDM]

that is why many agencies don't have bonnet/boot mounted antennas any more-

Well, there are still a heck of a lot of vehicles that do. I drove past heaps of utes and vans belonging to off-roaders, mining companies, grey nomads, and the military in the last few days and most had bumper-mounted antennas, and I bet they were running more power than 5w. What does a Codan or Barratt put out on land mobile or RFDS frequencies?

What about marine radios? Try getting the correct separation aboard a boat using 100w output.

There has to be the same sauce for goose and gander - if they are forcing EMR regs on hams who are working portable or mobile then, they had better get cracking and sort out other groups as well. Discrimination is illegal.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2AAH]

Wayne,

What discrimination? It is called ignorance... but the ACMA rightly expects better from Advanced license holders. I find it staggering how some people can sqwawk about a cell phone tower frying the children but we have hams generating potentially more power at a much closer physical separation. Why the double standard? The risk of being sued... large corporations (such as a Telco) or a government agency has much more to lose & is more likely to wind up in court. Far less likely for a ham with a bit of copper wire across a yard to be some lawyer's litigation target.

Can I suggest to you that your whole attitude to this issue is cock-eyed? What about your own concern for your health? Do people like you seriously believe that past deaths & serious illnesses put down to RF exposure were hoaxes? To me it is less about complying with any ACMA dictum but more about making sure that I, and people who I care about, are safe from my actions. Sadly some hams don't believe that RF radiation is a real public health issue- and for their families sake I hope their ignorance doesn't turn around & bite them.

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4WDM]

Sadly some hams don't believe that RF radiation is a real public health issue- and for their families sake I hope their ignorance doesn't turn around & bite them.

Whoa Richard!

I have worked in public health for 30 years and I do believe that RF is a health hazard. I do not support the widespread use of 1000w because of the increased risk. I have carried the EMR calcs on my station from the first day they were required and did the latest set two days ago. I could run 400w and still be compliant, but I don't, why? Because I don't want to increase the exposure of myself or anyone else.

What I was pointing out was that it is not just hams who are ignorant about EMR, it seems that the vast majority of, in this case, mobile users are too, and by extension, most installers of mobile systems. To target hams and ignore the others is not going to do much to reduce the hazard is it?

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK/9V1CJ]

Oh I forgot, this is ham radio. A standard call's not allowed to have an opinion because the 1kW trial is only available to advanced calls

I will upgrade to advanced, but I'm not interested in running 1kW. Not at this point in time, I live in a unit and the separation distances are much too small. Despite not having any personal interest in QRO, I think having a 1kW licence is a great idea. I just think that giving high power to hobbyists that are ill-prepared to use it safely is a bad idea. Hopefully the WIA's education initiative as a result of this trial will produce some solid improvement in knowledge and if we get another chance to try out higher power we won't screw it up again.

Hi Geoff

I think your blanket statements are extremely naive. And there is no need to get upset i was only asking. This is the problem with these forums is everyone is ready for a argument.

My self performed EMR audit was accurate and compliant. My tower is over 10 Metres above ground level and not accessible by the public. It is behind a locked gate. Have you calculated your exclusions zones at your lower power level? Even F Calls must as part of their licence conditions. I have not seen the ACMA since my application and a desk audit will not help them as they dont know where my antennae are located. Consequently I am very dubious about the reasons given. I have actually personally organised an RF survey on a Commerical high profile site in this area with accompaning ARPANSA certification and site manual so i am not totally new to this. I bet there are quite a few others who took part in the trial who had also had commercial experience.

Let me ask has anyone done an EMR calculation on a 2m/70cm handheld radio or a mobile amateur set up? They can and never will comply. Will they ban all hand held transceivers ie: Police, Security guards, shopping centre cleaners etc etc?

Incidentally the ACMA said that a 1000Watt power level was not the norm.

I did a quick bit of research and found the following for some sample countries

• Canada - 2250Watts
• USA - 1500Watts
• Israel – 1500Watts
• New Zealand - 1000Watts
• Japan – HF – 1000Watts
• Netherlands – 1000Watts
• Spain – 1000Watts
• Belgian – 1000Watts
• Germany – 750Watts
• Indonesia – 500Watts
• Italy – 500Watts
Australia, South Africa, Malaysia, the UK and India 400Watts

You know why we have a 400watt limit? It is because of the poms. Note all the 400watt countries are either current or ex Commonwealth parts of the British empire.

Anyway food for thought.

Cheers

These are the conditions I have to work with in Singapore (note my SG Licence is "equivalent" to an Australian advanced licence under the reciprocal licensing scheme). Singapore (no matter where you go) is urban, and mostly high rise. And it's ex Commonwealth. Food for thought.

[VK2TS]

Hi Geoff

I think your blanket statements are extremely naive. And there is no need to get upset i was only asking. This is the problem with these forums is everyone is ready for a argument.

My self performed EMR audit was accurate and compliant. My tower is over 10 Metres above ground level and not accessible by the public. It is behind a locked gate. Have you calculated your exclusions zones at your lower power level? Even F Calls must as part of their licence conditions. I have not seen the ACMA since my application and a desk audit will not help them as they dont know where my antennae are located. Consequently I am very dubious about the reasons given. I have actually personally organised an RF survey on a Commerical high profile site in this area with accompaning ARPANSA certification and site manual so i am not totally new to this. I bet there are quite a few others who took part in the trial who had also had commercial experience.

Let me ask has anyone done an EMR calculation on a 2m/70cm handheld radio or a mobile amateur set up? They can and never will comply. Will they ban all hand held transceivers ie: Police, Security guards, shopping centre cleaners etc etc?

Incidentally the ACMA said that a 1000Watt power level was not the norm.

I did a quick bit of research and found the following for some sample countries

• Canada - 2250Watts
• USA - 1500Watts
• Israel – 1500Watts
• New Zealand - 1000Watts
• Japan – HF – 1000Watts
• Netherlands – 1000Watts
• Spain – 1000Watts
• Belgian – 1000Watts
• Germany – 750Watts
• Indonesia – 500Watts
• Italy – 500Watts
Australia, South Africa, Malaysia, the UK and India 400Watts

You know why we have a 400watt limit? It is because of the poms. Note all the 400watt countries are either current or ex Commonwealth parts of the British empire.

Anyway food for thought.

Cheers[/quote]

These are the conditions I have to work with in Singapore (note my SG Licence is "equivalent" to an Australian advanced licence under the reciprocal licensing scheme). Singapore (no matter where you go) is urban, and mostly high rise. And it's ex Commonwealth. Food for thought.

[/quote]

Wow you are lucky to have 300watts as i assume your Australian foundation licence allowed you to have their Advanced version? Better than 10watts

Cheers

[VK4BLP]

Tony, can you please appropriately quote just the piece that you are responding to?

Your last post lost the context of the post you were replying to.

[VK2TS]

Tony, can you please appropriately quote just the piece that you are responding to?

Your last post lost the context of the post you were replying to.

It wouldn't let me as it said a maximum of 3 messages can be quoted mate

[VK4WDM]

Richard VK2AAH wrote

Can I suggest to you that your whole attitude to this issue is cock-eyed? What about your own concern for your health? Do people like you seriously believe that past deaths & serious illnesses put down to RF exposure were hoaxes?

Whoa Richard! You are flogging the wrong horse!

None of my posts on this thread or similar threads suggest that I think that RF exposure is a load of BS. I have worked in public health for 30+years and I do know that RF exposure is a concern.

I have said elsewhere that it should be a requirement that an EMR assessment be done for all ham stations and that a copy of it should be sent to the ACMA with a licence application or renewal.

I have carried out the EMR assessments on my station since the first day they were required and did another lot last weekend when I changed an antenna. My station complies, in fact I could run 400w and still be compliant, but I choose to use 100w because I can't see the point in squirting excess RF around when lower power will do (Yes, it works - 228 DXCC entities, mostly on SSB, all on 100w).

I don't support the push for blanket approval for 1000w either. Special cases only (as it is now).

What I was pointing out in the post that you objected to was the obvious - it is no use targeting hams who are responsible for only a small (but significant) EMR output and ignore the other groups. To back up that point: I drove past a large mining company yard this morning and ALL the work vehicles (at least ten) had at least two solid, quite large, bumper-mounted antennas and although I did not look inside, I expect that they would be attached to equally solid transceivers that pump out quite a bit of power - so what are the EMR regulators doing about that group?

Yes, hams should know all about EMR safety, but so should the companies that operate these vehicles, and very importantly the companies that install them.

Cheers

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2AAH]

Sorry Wayne, I must have misunderstood your message... but there is no point pointing the finger at the ignorance of other groups. Amateurs are technically accredited hobbyists, we have a level of knowledge that most others don't have. The ACMA has every right to expect that in return for the privilege of self assessment that we demonstrate to their satisfaction that we have the knowledge to do it.

I have no idea what power those you observed were licensed for but it wasn't 1kW, and it wasn't more than 100Watts. The moment you go above 100Watts the rules tighten (see a previous email that explained this).

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2OMD]

...
I have said elsewhere that it should be a requirement that an EMR assessment be done for all ham stations and that a copy of it should be sent to the ACMA with a licence application or renewal.
...

What I was pointing out in the post that you objected to was the obvious - it is no use targeting hams who are responsible for only a small (but significant) EMR output and ignore the other groups. To back up that point: I drove past a large mining company yard this morning and ALL the work vehicles (at least ten) had at least two solid, quite large, bumper-mounted antennas and although I did not look inside, I expect that they would be attached to equally solid transceivers that pump out quite a bit of power - so what are the EMR regulators doing about that group?

Yes, hams should know all about EMR safety, but so should the companies that operate these vehicles, and very importantly the companies that install them.

It IS a requirement that EMR (EME) assessments be done for all ham stations and record made for Level 2 cases. The ACMA can ask for the licencee to produce the record, and they stipulate a time within which you must respond.

You are asking for more detailed supervision of our stations. If we have to obtain prior approval as you suggest, then we would not be able to alter the station configuration without prior approval. This would severely restrain opportunity for experimentation, the main argument for the considerable freedome that we enjoy in equipment and other respects.

I doubt you have thought this through, and I doubt you would have majority support amongst licencees for that sort of change. Don't go offering up the freedom that we enjoy unless you can demonstrate majority support.

In the many WIA announcements and ACMA announcements I have seen on this high power trial, they all reminded readers of the EME (EMR) assessment requirements. The ACMA announcement stated "The applicant must ensure that the proposed signal level from the station complies with the radiofrequency emission limits stipulated in the ARPANSA standard"... "Applicants will not be required to demonstrate compliance with the ARPANSA standard at the time of application. However, at any time during the trial the ACMA may request a licensee demonstrate compliance with the standard".

The several WIA announcements contained similar information and links to reference sources.

You speak as if it is only hams who have been 'targetted', do you have evidence of this or is it just paranoia?

Instead of fretting about what other users do (hams and other radiocommunications users), just look after your own obligations... that will probably be sufficient challenge.

Owen

[VK2AAH]

Owen,

I support what you wrote and again suggest to Wayne that he goes & has a look at the on line facility set up for use by all the carriers. If Wayne only knew how much is spent by the radio industry on EMR compliance he would not be objecting to the level of SELF certification we are asked to provide. I think people should be very careful complaining too loudly because the ACMA could bring amateurs in line with other spectrum users that have to PAY for independent assessment. That can easily come to $1000 per location... think what that would do to AR in Australia!

Cheers

Richard
VK2AAH

[VK2OMD]

...That can easily come to $1000 per location... think what that would do to AR in Australia!

I expect that some of us will not be able to read the relevant documents, make a sound interpretation and respond as necessary if asked to demonstrate compliance despite the many explanatory notes and guidelines (and that has been amply demonstrated in recent posts in this place).

Those people can always seek assistance, and as you note there are consultancy firms that provide a full service (subject to terms and conditions).

I doubt that any rational person would offer to perform such a service for another person for no charge given the potential for litigation.

This environment is not new, it has changed little since 2003.

Owen