Everyone seems to have missed this point. What would happen in the event that Richard did drop the radio in his checked baggage and someone found it and questioned him about it? Where would he stand after he was advised by all these groups that he should fill out the appropriate paperwork?VK2AAH wrote:Sorry, you clearly don't get it. The encryption module is contained in a radio- the combination of the two is a prohibited export. Don't argue with me, go and argue that with the radio manufacturer, Department of Defence, and Customs. It is also a prohibited export FROM New Zealand... it requires export clearance from both countries.
Richard
VK2AAH
70cm in ZL
Re: 70cm in ZL
Lou - VK3ALB
Being right doesn't excuse bad behaviour
Being right doesn't excuse bad behaviour
Re: 70cm in ZL
I never said anything about repeaters in NZ. There are numerous examples, on this forum, of threads being derailed by those who clearly have impeccable operating procedures telling others exactly what they are doing wrong...VK4TIM wrote:Operating outside the bandplans? I assume you're referring to some ZL repeaters running inverted offsets. Some groups have applied for inverted because of QRM problems, and frequencies have been assigned appropriately, by the people responsible for bandplan, technical issues and frequency assignments within the Amateur bands, and then licenced without issue by the licensing authority. There is provision within the ZL bandplan for this to happen, unlike here, (and there should be here in VK but that's another issue), so there's no non-bandplan compliant repeaters in ZL.VK2CSW wrote:I know this is off-topic,
But on this very forum people get castigated for minor operating procedure indiscretions, or for the heinous crime of suggesting that operating outside the gentlemen's agreement of the band plans is OK, yet people are actively inciting Richard the breach Customs laws of two countries - i.e. smuggling prohibited items, and this seems to be acceptable.
At least it amused me...
Richard explained that the radio contains an encryption module - no matter how you slice or dice it - it is a controlled item. Taking it out of Australia into NZ without proper authority is smuggling. The same when he brings in back to Oz.As for "smuggling" prohibited items, that is simply not the case, come on guys, let's be sensible about this. It's an Amateur portable radio, not some sort of sanctioned military hardware.
Unfortunately you are wrong in this instance. It is a controlled item. Please re-read Richards explanation about the radio - it is a commercial radio. Many countries do not trust their people, Australia included. This leads them to control devices and code which is difficult for their security services to break. AES, Triple DES etc devices fall under this category. Import/Export controls can and are waived in certain cases, when "secret" backdoors and the like are provided to the security services, many companies do not like doing this so wear the import controls - it would appear that Tait is one of those companies.If a P25 radio has the capability to encrypt transmissions, as they all do, but then so does every other digital platform, and it's used by a licenced Amateur operator, on Amateur frequencies, there's nothing restricted or illegal about taking the radio across any international border.
Quite the contrary, if you do not declare it and do not have the necessary paperwork you have rocks in your head and I would suggest you also have a wish to meet Bubba in the showers in D Wing at Malabar Industrial Prison.If you rock up at the airport and draw attention to the fact that you have something that could be encrypted or illegal, then you've got rocks in your head. Seriously!
Technically you are committing an offence by encouraging someone to break the law. Richard may be licensed to possess the module in Australia, but he is not authorised to export or import it without the appropriate permits. It is what it is. If you wish to take your chances by not declaring or not having the correct permits for things that require them, that is your prerogative. I, on the other hand, prefer to do a little paper work and jump a few hoops rather than risk it. YMMVPut the thing in you checked in case, take off the antenna and battery, check it in, and go. Who cares if you have something that you're licensed to be in posession of and use. If you do that, you won't have a problem.
I travel overseas often enough, and I have never had a problem
You may have traveled overseas often but so had Schappelle Corby (sp?) and it didn't help her much.
______________________________________________________________
Colin
VK2CSW
Where are we going? And exactly why am I in a hand-basket?
Colin
VK2CSW
Where are we going? And exactly why am I in a hand-basket?
Re: 70cm in ZL
So you're essentially re-enforcing my point here, Compton - My laptops, iPhone and various other bits of gear have encryption in them, including DES and AES. And how many people declare this? How many people even realise this?...VK2HRX wrote:encryption technology is a red flag under many laws.
And how many get prosecuted for it..?
Last edited by VK2LK on Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
Don't apologise - you got that right Richard - I don't get itVK2AAH wrote:Sorry, you clearly don't get it. The encryption module is contained in a radio- the combination of the two is a prohibited export. Don't argue with me, go and argue that with the radio manufacturer, Department of Defence, and Customs. It is also a prohibited export FROM New Zealand... it requires export clearance from both countries.
Everyone is saying "Encryption is an prohibited export" - Yet everyone takes their laptops in and out of the country without a worry in the world. All modern operating systems have DES and AES (128, 192 and 256) built in, not to mention many other algorithms too. These are all unclassified, consumer grade algorithms that you can buy embedded into hard disks and USB keys off eBay.
Its extremely amusing that I can use AES-256 on my laptop and take it in and out of the country, so I could theoretically send AES encrypted emails to evil people, and this would be considered OK - but when I try to take a portable radio out so I can chat to someone using encryption its suddenly different? I have been looking hard but I can't find anything to support this - perhaps you can help me with a link or something, because I'm keen to learn more about this rule.
Last edited by VK2LK on Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
By the way, heres a link to some AES source code that anyone in the entire world with an internet connection can download:-
http://polarssl.org/aes-source-code
http://polarssl.org/aes-source-code
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
Hi Justin
The DMR standard itself makes no provisions for, and does not define any encryption at all.
MotoTRBO has a proprietary algorithm that is based on the 40-bit RC4 algorithm and is cryptographically weak - from the USA point of view, It its into the same category as DES and AES (Its type 3)
Cheers,
Matt
The DMR standard itself makes no provisions for, and does not define any encryption at all.
MotoTRBO has a proprietary algorithm that is based on the 40-bit RC4 algorithm and is cryptographically weak - from the USA point of view, It its into the same category as DES and AES (Its type 3)
Cheers,
Matt
VK2CU wrote:Hey Richard,
I don't usually watch Trashmedia (Seven & Noine) but seeing you go off on Border Security.....that would make great TV!
But seriously, is it just P25 encryption or would DMR encryption be affected by various countries import/export laws as well?
Justin
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
There are different levels of encryption. Some are not restricted or controlloed, others are. Given the advise that Richard has had concerning his technology I'd safely conclude that what ever he is using is a restricted technology. Oil's ain't oils and encryption ain't encryption.....VK2LK wrote:So you're essentially re-enforcing my point here, Compton - My laptops, iPhone and various other bits of gear have encryption in them, including DES and AES. And how many people declare this? How many people even realise this?...VK2HRX wrote:encryption technology is a red flag under many laws.
And how many get prosecuted for it..?
Compton
VK2HRX
QF56ne, Ryde, Sydney
VK2HRX
QF56ne, Ryde, Sydney
Re: 70cm in ZL
Yes they are.
AES-256 is AES-256. Its a standard... And its the ONLY type of AES defined by the TIA.102 docs as being P25 compliant, so I can say with a degree of certainty thats what hes using.
I can also say that Windows, Mac OS and Linux all contain AES-256 as well.
AES-256 is AES-256. Its a standard... And its the ONLY type of AES defined by the TIA.102 docs as being P25 compliant, so I can say with a degree of certainty thats what hes using.
I can also say that Windows, Mac OS and Linux all contain AES-256 as well.
Matt, VK2LK
Re: 70cm in ZL
Holy smoke.. 
I never thought I would say this, but as crazy as it seems, its true...
from - http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L02061/Download
It appears that you can use encryption (such as AES) for whatever you want, just as long as its not in a 2 way radio! So, there you go, make sure that you declare your radio if you have encryption in it or you could land in serious trouble..
Amazingly, you can goto the Microsoft website, and see for yourself that AES is included in Windows and its virtually everywhere --> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc164055.aspx
Cheers,
Matt
I never thought I would say this, but as crazy as it seems, its true...
from - http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L02061/Download
It appears that you can use encryption (such as AES) for whatever you want, just as long as its not in a 2 way radio! So, there you go, make sure that you declare your radio if you have encryption in it or you could land in serious trouble..
Amazingly, you can goto the Microsoft website, and see for yourself that AES is included in Windows and its virtually everywhere --> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc164055.aspx
Cheers,
Matt
Matt, VK2LK
-
VK1VMA
Re: 70cm in ZL
Richard has made a wise decision.
Regulation 13E of the Customs (Prohibited Exports) Regulations 1958 prohibits items appearing on the Defence and Strategic Goods List from being exported unless permission has been granted by the Minister of Defence, or an authorised person (read: DECO), and that licence or permission is produced to Customs before exportation.
According to Defence and Strategic Goods List Amendment 2011 (No. 1) Category 5, cryptographic goods employing symmetric algorithms with a key length greater than 56 bits are generally controlled, but a whole raft of allowances are made from thereon. The most notable exceptions are:
"GENERAL SOFTWARE NOTE (GSN)
Categories 0 to 9 of this list do not control “software” which is either:
1. Generally available to the public by being:
a. Sold from stock at retail selling points, without restriction, by means of:
1. Over‑the‑counter transactions;
2. Mail order transactions;
3. Electronic transactions; or
4. Telephone order transactions; and
b. Designed for installation by the user without further substantial support by the supplier; or
N.B.: Entry a. of the General Software Note does not release “software” specified in Category 5 — Part 2 (“Information Security”).
2. “In the public domain”."
This gives you your get-out-of-jail free card for your copy of Windows or OpenSSL, but does not apply to secure radio equipment as you don't receive software -- you receive a radio, often with cryptography implemented on an ASIC or similar device.
And according to section 5A002, goods that are:
"a. Generally available to the public by being sold, without
restriction, from stock at retail selling points by means of any of
the following:
1. Over-the-counter transactions;
2. Mail order transactions;
3. Electronic transactions; or
4. Telephone call transactions;"
are exempt.
There is a further exception from 5A002 for:
"e. Portable or mobile radiotelephones for civil use (e.g., for use with commercial civil cellular radio communication systems) that are not capable of transmitting encrypted data directly to another radiotelephone or equipment (other than Radio Access Network (RAN) equipment), nor of passing encrypted data through RAN equipment (e.g., Radio Network Controller (RNC) or Base Station Controller (BSC));"
This means radios that are not capable of transmitting encrypted data directly to another radio (read: GSM handsets and the like) are OK.
All secure capable P25 radios are, however, capable transmitting encrypted data directly to another radio, and are therefore controlled exports if they employ a symmetric cipher with a key longer than 56 bits (in other words, better than DES-OFB).
Not all P25 equipment is capable of transmitting encrypted data, and not all such capable P25 equipment can employ a symmetric cipher with a key length greater than 56 bits. Richard's radio is unfortunately one such item.
MOTOTRBO equipment is exempt, as the strongest crypto currently available on that platform is RC4-40.
You can export P25 equipped only with ADP or DES-OFB all day long*. When you start dealing with AES, however, you hit issues with the DSGL.
* For the most part. Let's not talk about what happens with exporting equipment that originated in the USA to unfriendly countries...
Regulation 13E of the Customs (Prohibited Exports) Regulations 1958 prohibits items appearing on the Defence and Strategic Goods List from being exported unless permission has been granted by the Minister of Defence, or an authorised person (read: DECO), and that licence or permission is produced to Customs before exportation.
According to Defence and Strategic Goods List Amendment 2011 (No. 1) Category 5, cryptographic goods employing symmetric algorithms with a key length greater than 56 bits are generally controlled, but a whole raft of allowances are made from thereon. The most notable exceptions are:
"GENERAL SOFTWARE NOTE (GSN)
Categories 0 to 9 of this list do not control “software” which is either:
1. Generally available to the public by being:
a. Sold from stock at retail selling points, without restriction, by means of:
1. Over‑the‑counter transactions;
2. Mail order transactions;
3. Electronic transactions; or
4. Telephone order transactions; and
b. Designed for installation by the user without further substantial support by the supplier; or
N.B.: Entry a. of the General Software Note does not release “software” specified in Category 5 — Part 2 (“Information Security”).
2. “In the public domain”."
This gives you your get-out-of-jail free card for your copy of Windows or OpenSSL, but does not apply to secure radio equipment as you don't receive software -- you receive a radio, often with cryptography implemented on an ASIC or similar device.
And according to section 5A002, goods that are:
"a. Generally available to the public by being sold, without
restriction, from stock at retail selling points by means of any of
the following:
1. Over-the-counter transactions;
2. Mail order transactions;
3. Electronic transactions; or
4. Telephone call transactions;"
are exempt.
There is a further exception from 5A002 for:
"e. Portable or mobile radiotelephones for civil use (e.g., for use with commercial civil cellular radio communication systems) that are not capable of transmitting encrypted data directly to another radiotelephone or equipment (other than Radio Access Network (RAN) equipment), nor of passing encrypted data through RAN equipment (e.g., Radio Network Controller (RNC) or Base Station Controller (BSC));"
This means radios that are not capable of transmitting encrypted data directly to another radio (read: GSM handsets and the like) are OK.
All secure capable P25 radios are, however, capable transmitting encrypted data directly to another radio, and are therefore controlled exports if they employ a symmetric cipher with a key longer than 56 bits (in other words, better than DES-OFB).
Not all P25 equipment is capable of transmitting encrypted data, and not all such capable P25 equipment can employ a symmetric cipher with a key length greater than 56 bits. Richard's radio is unfortunately one such item.
MOTOTRBO equipment is exempt, as the strongest crypto currently available on that platform is RC4-40.
You can export P25 equipped only with ADP or DES-OFB all day long*. When you start dealing with AES, however, you hit issues with the DSGL.
* For the most part. Let's not talk about what happens with exporting equipment that originated in the USA to unfriendly countries...
Re: 70cm in ZL
Thanks VK1FPGA - thats a definitive response which is pretty much what I was hoping for..
As always, I appreciate your opinion
As always, I appreciate your opinion
Matt, VK2LK
-
VK1VMA
Re: 70cm in ZL
Actually, Richard, you may be exempt in some circumstances
"Note 2: Category 5 — Part 2 does not control products when accompanying their user for the user‘s personal use." (emphasis mine.)
If it's a work radio that you're taking overseas for work purposes (ie official government use), no. But if it's your own radio that happens to be secure equipped that you're taking overseas for personal use in the amateur radio service, you'd be OK.
"Note 2: Category 5 — Part 2 does not control products when accompanying their user for the user‘s personal use." (emphasis mine.)
If it's a work radio that you're taking overseas for work purposes (ie official government use), no. But if it's your own radio that happens to be secure equipped that you're taking overseas for personal use in the amateur radio service, you'd be OK.
Last edited by VK1VMA on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 70cm in ZL
OK, I am now officially as well as medically frustrated...
They are taking a hard line with me & a phone call has just now been followed by a formal request to them to expedite it. I received the Yes Minister response this morning that "we only expedite ADF requests".... So my next avenue will be a Commissioner ringing a General... and then we will see what comes of that! Plans B and C are already being put in place in case Plan A gets nowhere. At least our handhelds are not fitted with encryption so I have 1 radio I can test (and use on 70cm!).
I'm glad the ADF are not our enemy because they scare me as an ally.
Cheers,
Richard
They are taking a hard line with me & a phone call has just now been followed by a formal request to them to expedite it. I received the Yes Minister response this morning that "we only expedite ADF requests".... So my next avenue will be a Commissioner ringing a General... and then we will see what comes of that! Plans B and C are already being put in place in case Plan A gets nowhere. At least our handhelds are not fitted with encryption so I have 1 radio I can test (and use on 70cm!).
I'm glad the ADF are not our enemy because they scare me as an ally.
Cheers,
Richard
Re: 70cm in ZL
Advice like that is cheap... no I'm not going to put my neck on the line by breaking the law. My employer wouldn't support me & I wouldn't blame them.
Richard
Richard
Re: 70cm in ZL
I just received an email from DECO... they hope to issue my permit this afternoon. If someone had a word in an ear- thanks!
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
-
VK2JDH
Re: 70cm in ZL
Maybe they read this forum and realise you are not pulling a swifty?VK2AAH wrote:I just received an email from DECO... they hope to issue my permit this afternoon. If someone had a word in an ear- thanks!
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
Re: 70cm in ZL
Who knows? I am grateful regardless...
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
Re: 70cm in ZL
Hi all,
The radio & myself are safely in ZL... because I chose to carry the radios in my cabin luggage it immediately attracted attention from the Sydney XRay operator... once I was able to show them the export permit & my credentials it all became very friendly. Even though I agree that the guys in Customs probably wouldn't have even known what "encryption" is, showing that I had gone to some effort to carry documentation (in my view) improved their attitude towards me.
I'll program some repeater frequencies tonight or tomorrow so hopefully I'll catch up with some ZL VKloggers on 70cm.
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH
The radio & myself are safely in ZL... because I chose to carry the radios in my cabin luggage it immediately attracted attention from the Sydney XRay operator... once I was able to show them the export permit & my credentials it all became very friendly. Even though I agree that the guys in Customs probably wouldn't have even known what "encryption" is, showing that I had gone to some effort to carry documentation (in my view) improved their attitude towards me.
I'll program some repeater frequencies tonight or tomorrow so hopefully I'll catch up with some ZL VKloggers on 70cm.
Cheers,
Richard
VK2AAH