23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

23cm, 2.4/3.4/5.7/10/24/47 GHz and above - antennas, propagation, operating, etc. Includes Optical communications, with light,
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23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

We're just over a week away from the next 23-on-23, it's time to start thinking about how to run the next one so we keep the momentum and activity levels up! :?:

Following previous 23-on-23 events it's clear from feedback that the relatively unstructured formats haven't suited everyone, and a highly structured 'net' style operation (similar to some of the highly coordinated HF DX nets) would no doubt draw similar levels of discontent (probably considerably more, truth be told).

We need to continue to develop the concept and whilst we may never find a format that suits everyone, hopefully we will find one that suits the majority.

One observation that supports the continuation of 23-on-23 is the noticeable increase in the level of activity on 23cm in SE VK4 outside of these events, add to that the level of discussion around improving station capabilities. Directly related to 23-on-23?... maybe not, but the causality is hard to argue. Things are certainly healthier than they were not so long ago. :thumbup:

In my discussions with some of the 23cm operators the one common thread that draws us together is the challenge and opportunity of working more distant stations and not just working across town (sort of supports why you wont find many of us sitting on the local repeaters) :twisted:

So, with this 23-on-23 just a couple of days after the conclusion of the VHF/UHF Winter Field Day, I'd like to suggest we try something new, an alternative format :crazy: And for this event, could we create activity where the focus is to look to the stations outside of the Brisbane metro area :?:

There are at least six regularly active stations that would provide suitable, quality 'targets' to our north, south west and south! If we focus on each sequentially the opportunity to work them, and they work us has to be improved. To illustrate a possible approach....

Start 20:00 EST (10:00z) [as this is a 'school' night]
Time slot - Target station
20:00 - 20:15 - VK4BG Hervey Bay (QG64jq)
20:15 - 20:30 - VK4REX: Landsborough (QG63le)
20:30 - 20:45 - VK4ADM: Sippy Downs (QH63mg)
20:45 - 21:00 - VK4KAY: Warwick (QG61AT)
21:00 - 21:15 - VK4DH: Killarney (QG61dq)
21:15 - 21:30 - VK2MAX: Kempsey (QF68JV)

Once a station completes a QSO, they 'stand down' and wait until the next target/time slot.

I can see a number of potential issues with the format... including,
  • 1. the lack of AE enhancement during specified time slots (for some or all paths),
    2. will require commitment from target stations to be on during allocated slots,
    3. will require considerate operating etiquette
    4. will require a central coordination approach like VKLogger iChat or a 2m FM repeater to centre and make public any coordination (private channels like email or phone during the event wont work :om: ),
    5. the physical spread of stations for which the target station needs to work (many of which will be outside of beam width)
    6. will take at least 1.5hours, if not longer to complete
When is it not a challenge... so do you think its worth a go :?:
:thumbdown: or :thumbup:

Your thoughts? :popcorn:
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

Sorry.... forgot Robert VK4LHD/P Buderim! (would slot in with northern stations)


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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CLG »

Well I'm all for trying different things to see what format works and what don't work but the problem is that we tried this type of idea with the MAD having 1296 in a set time slot that then 2.4Ghz 30 mins later Etc Etc but how often does it stay to the time slot. Never. Most of us seem to prefer the free for all call someone when you hear them rather than wait for the time slot and miss out.

The other problem for me is where I go portable won't give me a clear run to the north because of high buildings and trees not to mention the terrain itself as I'm down on the South East side of Buderim with the only opening looking South so getting VK4BG or anyone to the north from my spot will be difficult at best. Also because I can only work 23cm from a portable site I'm open to the weather so if it's raining I won't be out and with the onset of Winter I will be in the cold for how ever long the activities go for so I'm not really keen on spending 1.5Hrs or more in the cold of night. But on a brighter note, SCARC has just erected a new 20m aluminium tower with the plans to put a 23cm yagi on top so if the club pulls its finger out and finishes it then I will have a go at the 23 on 23 from the SCARC club rooms. But again I still think that Buderim will restrict anything to the South west but Brisbane and due south should be ok from the Club Rooms.

All up I think we are a bit late this month for getting the word out and organising a slot system but I would be prepared to give it a go next month.

Cheers
Robert
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4ADM »

G,day Scott.
Good on you for promoting activity on 23cm, there has been a definite increase in activity over the last few months here on the Sunshine Coast.Even with low power I have been able to work Vk4bg from my lousy position behind Buderim mountain,and another station down near Robert managed contacts on a few nights, the path being more or less over water. I am not sure targeting each station with their own time slots will work,how about a time slot for all stations around Bris to beam north and an other one to beam south. I am willing to try anything to promote activity,my two bob,s worth.http://www.vklogger.com/forum/posting.p ... 40&t=13165#
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4AFL »

I think Scotts suggestion re a revised format for this coming Tuesday is worth a try. Grant VK2MAX intends to operate from the same hill top location as he did during last months 23/23 where he was good into Brisbane without a/c enhancement & very good with. Note that stations VK4KAY [who is getting up to Hervey Bay] VK2XN, VK2MAX, VK4BG, myself & sometimes VK4VU & VK4ADM are operational several nights each week check the 23cm logger. Friday & Sunday evenings have a high concentration of a/c movements.
Some operators have plans or are in the process of updating their stations potential & the best & most cost effective method of achieving this is to have more iron in the sky. There is no point in having a $3000 radio on one end of the coax & a $50 antenna system at the other end. It has been suggested by another VK4 that 23cm "is microwaves version of 6m" which to me is part of the appeal.
Look forward to more contacts, especially DX.

Regards & 73`s, Trevor, VK4AFL.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

VK4AFL wrote...
Grant VK2MAX intends to operate from the same hill top location as he did during last months 23/23
Trevor,

May need Grant to confirm... as in my discussions with him, I had thought his /P operation was only this weekend for participation in the Winter VHF/UHF Field Day and did not include the 23-on-23 on Tuesday evening!

(But I may be wrong and if he does go /P for Tuesday evening, he deserves a big thanks :beer: ).
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

To keep things moving, and whilst there's been a few positive comments, there's been no commitments to activity.

As such I suggest that this Tuesday night we take a step forward and run an amended format with the emphasis on working the more distant stations. Format as follows:

Phone/CW
Start time: 10:00z / 8:00pm AEST / 9:00pm ADST

Stations in BNE and more southern stations beaming north
08:00pm - 08:30pm / 10:00z - 10:30z
QRG: 1,296.100MHz

Stations in BNE and more northern stations beaming south
08:30pm - 09:00pm / 10:30z - 11:00z
QRG: 1,296.100MHz

Digital
Start time: 11:00z / 9:00pm AEST
QRG: 1,296.225MHz (Mode JT65)
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4AFL »

I will be on tomorrow night Tues & as previously reported VK2MAX will be portable on the same hill as the FD which will give Northern stations a very good chance. Note the revised format. VK4AFL.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CLG »

Well I'm ready to go so weather permitting I will be in the usual portable location on Buderim. I will only take 23cm gear no one else has mentioned trying other bands.
Catch you all tomorrow night.

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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

Starts in 15 minutes :thumbup:

Please follow the suggested operating schedule.

Please remember that 23-on-23 is not a net, and that each operator has the opportunity to establish contacts but where contacts are established assistance for other operators seeking to 'exploit' the same path would be appreciated.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK2XN »

G'day Glenn VK4BG... calling your way now on cw for a couple of minutes....

Wayne.... VK2XN QF59ar.... Narrabri
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CLG »

Well I'm back home now and look like a drowned rat. It started off to be real good night before I had to abandon ship with the rain. I hung around for a little while but the rain just didn't let up so I had no choice but to go home.
I would have like to have made a few more contacts but it wasn't to be. Anyway let me know how the new format went and I will try again next month.

Robert.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

Thanks to everyone who participated.... interesting conditions. Some of the best condx I've seen to the south with Grant VK2MAX, but the scatter path to the north well below past 23-on-23 activation events, and no direct path to the north avail.

Worked SSB:
VK4LHD/P - Buderim
VK2MAX/P - Kempsey

Heard SSB:
VK4ADM - Sippy Downs
VK4ZQ - Brisbane
VK4AFL - Birkdale
VK4VU - McDowall
VK4KAY - Warwick

Worked JT65C:
VK4KAY - Warwick

Known to be active:
VK4BG - Hervey Bay (weakly heard SSB on scatter QTF 300 while Glenn was in QSO with VK4VU)
VK4DH - Kilarney
VK2XN - Narrabri

And a big thank you to Robert VK4LHD and Grant VK2MAX for heading our /P.... truly appreciated. :beer:

As for the format... certainly far more appealing to me than just working BNE stations.

My only suggestion I would have is for those that have the 'easier' (read as less terra firma) paths to some of the more distant stations, is that they consider assisting others by sustaining contacts longer so a variety of scatter paths can be checked to see if there are definite alternative peaks available other than the direct paths.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4BG »

Hi Guys,

Worked VK4VU, AFL and KAY. All reasonable signals. Heard quite a few whistles.

I also heard CW..so I assume that was VK2XN, so we were close....the CW was at a quite reasonable strength but I had no idea at the time who it was ( CW skills zero ).

No sign of VK2MAX, LHD, ADM or CZ.

Several off frequency stations that I heard but never worked ( fleeting signs of voices or whistles )....this is a real bug bear of mine, as if you are weak, and also off frequency...chances of a contact are not good. These days it is reasonably easy to get close, or spot on, frequency...so worth thinking about. I'm rubidium locked, and the LPRO standards are not that expensive...but, I have ordered a $65 AUD Chinese 10Mhz oven, just to see how good it is compared to the rubidium, if it is left powered up 24/7.

Overall...a fun night, and worth the effort ! Thanks to all for coming up...and especially you Robert, if you got wet !

73
Glenn
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4ADM »

G'day all.
Quite a good night here, worked VK4AFL,VK4VU,VK4ZQ & VK4LHD . Heard Vk4cz & VK2MAX .
I hope to increase my output power beyond 2w before the next 23rd which should make it a bit easier for distant stations.
Thanks to all for having a go.
Cheer's Daryl VK4ADM
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4ZQ »

Hello All,
Its been 4 years since I last put a signal on 23 but it was great to hear the level of activity.
I worked VK4ADM, VK4AFL, VK4VU and VK4LHD/p.
I heard VK2MAX/p, VK4BG, VK4CZ and VK4DH.
Thanks for a good night.
73 Roy VK4ZQ
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4BG »

G'Day Roy,

Long time, no speak...didn't hear you last night, but maybe next month !

73
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4EA »

Roy's back! I've missed the microwave reference station :-) I have not unpacked from the field day, hence no participation from me last night. I will be on next month ....

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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4CZ »

It would be good to hear feedback on the revised format. I feel it certainly helped and will recommend that we continue this forward for a couple more 23-on-23 activation events to see how it develops.

It's a shame I didn't hear you Glenn... but wasn't for lack of trying. I am certainly there was a very weak scatter path using either Clear Mountain or the D'Agular Ranges (somewhere north of Mt Glorious) based on QTF... swung the yagi to all points from QTF 0 to QTF 360 many times trying for a scatter path. And CQ'ed regularly on SSB and CW (so it may have been me). But no response.

I'll order the alum for my new long yagi before the end of the week, and get construction of that underway as soon as it arrives. The LNA is slowly progressing and hopefully will be installed the in the coming months. However, without raising antenna another 20m to gain 'clearance' of my immediate northern horizon, the terra firma will continue to prove a challenge on anything 70cm and above unless a scatter path is found. }:[

Did you see any scatter path potential on any of the paths you tried, so I know where to try next time we're both on?
Last edited by VK4CZ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 23-on-23: June 23, 2015 - an alternative format

Post by VK4KAY »

Thanks to all that made the evening a successful one.
Plenty of contacts.
To the north and Brisbane - VK4BG, VK4AFL, VK4VU, heard VK4CZ
The east, southeast and southwest - VK4DH, VK2MAX and VK2XN
All on SSB with and without airplane assistance when required.
Completed digital contacts with VK4CZ.

The revised format was great. Next time I will see if the airplanes are in the correct position for contacts into the Sunshine coast.
All we need is an A330 (international flight) over Brisbane on approach to enhance signals for Brisbane stations.

With the many flights to Sydney through that time frame contacts to Grant VK2MAX are possible even with smaller stations.
All you need is the correct timing and to know that you are on the correct frequency.

Most should have the beacon 4RBB available to receive, so that is your best reference to calibrate your VFO offset for your rigs current drift on the evening (due to temp etc).
We are lucky to have a fully locked beacon with digital capability. If you have digital capability then the beacon will effectively give you your drift offset for your VFO from the decodes.

Operating a small fan at the back of the rig (near the heatsinks) helps to keep the radio drifting too far.
Well it helps with mine to better than 20hz and sometimes within 5-10hz over a period of hours.

73's
Andru
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