Air powered tennis ball antenna launcher - legal?

[VK2JDH]

Thinking of building one of those compressed air tennis ball antenna launchers but on doing some research they may be classified as guns thus need permits . licenses etc.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/services/f ... rms_in_nsw Fact sheets

NSW informantion: My bolding
In NSW a firearm is:
"firearm" means a gun, or other weapon, that is (or at any time was) capable of propelling a projectile by means of an explosive, and includes a blank fire firearm, or an air gun, but does not include anything declared by the regulations not to be a firearm.

"air gun" means a gun that:
(a) can propel, or is designed to propel, a projectile:
(i) by means of any gas or mixture of gases, including air but not including a gas or mixture of gases generated by an explosive, or
(ii) by means of a spring, and
(b) is operated or designed for operation by means of a trigger or similar device.


Things defined not to be firearms: ( extract)
* A firearm designed to be used for life saving or
distress signalling purposes (such as line-throwing
guns or the "Very" type of firearm).

So if by some stretch of the imagination it could be defined "distress signalling purposes (such as line-throwing
guns " used in an training situation, such as the John Moyle field day. it might be OK.

What are others thoughts?

Dave vk2jdh

[VK2HRX]

When asked about these air powered devices the retired Detective Sargent over my back fence said that if he saw one of these in use then he would be obliged to ask a number of difficult to answer questions.

If you are using them for striging up antennas on private properties then that would mean you are not likely to be seen.

The following sling shot is great for stringing up antennas and are freely available etc. Seems there is no regulatory issue with using them.
http://www.arbormaster.com.au/product-c ... big-shots/

Compton
VK2HRX

[VK6ADF]

According to those regs, a kids toy that fires foam projectiles is illegal. Is that true in NSW? I am sure they are sold here in WA.

When you are out and about, especially near tree's you never know when you might find a "tree hugger" stuck up a treee needing a rescue line and all forms of safety equipment needs testing and training with to maintain proficiency in the use of. Then think up what to tell the judge.

I suppose you could ask the Firearms Branch of the NSW Police.

Also, from http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/sessi ... 96-235.pdf
Schedule 1 Amendment of Prohibited Weapons Regulation 1990
(Clause 3)
Clause 5 Additional prohibited weapons Insert at the end of clause 5:
(3) Schedule 1 to the Act is amended by inserting in appropriate order the following:
A dart projector known as the Darchery dartslinger or any similar device.
A slingshot (being a device consisting of an elasticised band secured to the forks of a “Y”
shaped frame), other than a slingshot made by a child in the course of play.
Page 2
(24A)
(24B)

The importer might have got the ok to use the Abormaster Big Shot legally but to read the NSW regs I would think that was illegal as well.

[VK3RX]

While slingshots are classed as prohibited weapons, Victorian firearms legislation used to say something to the effect that there was an exemption for radio amateurs to own and use slingshots for the purpose of erecting antennas.

See page 4 here http://news.vic.wicen.org.au/wnews596.pdf

The legislation has been repealed a few times and the exemption seems to have disappeared.

Ben VK3KBC put a post on VK-Ham late last year enquiring re the legality of slingshots and other forms of antenna launchers. He said to me he'd written to Michael Owen the WIA President a couple of times, but got no response (not unusual).

[VK2GOM]

Bear in mind state to state variations of rules.

In NSW, peashooters, spud guns, catapults - all illegal and considered prohibited weapons as they discharge a projectile.

I believe you can get dispensation to use a form of slingshot to fire a line over trees that tree surgeons use, although you may have a hard time justifying adherance to the (albeit crazy) NSW laws if you're not a tree surgeon.

Anything that fires a ball with compressed air out of a tube/barrel in NSW, forget about it, unless you like the taste of porridge and the thought of sewing mailbags.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / G0MOH

[VK3BA]

Just don't get sprung...

Bit like those things that propell oranges, lemons, spuds and anything else found around the campsite...

[VK4GHZ]

... unless you like the taste of porridge and the thought of sewing mailbags.

I'd be more worried about picking up the soap!

[VK3ALB]

Just don't get sprung...

Bit like those things that propel oranges, lemons, spuds and anything else found around the campsite...

In that respect I imagine some campsites could be more dangerous than others.

[VK2CSW]

I have, over the past few (well many) years has cause to deal with the folk at the NSW Firearms Registry.

On the whole they are good to deal with and for the most part they are very helpful. Unfortunately they work within a deliberately dysfunctional system. The point of this is, when in doubt ask them.

Keep in mind that under the regulations (via the Act) the Commissioner (and Minister) can apply exemptions under a "Commissioners Permit". For those who want/need to use a device such as these or the slingshot version, then you could head down that path.

Better still the WIA in each state should head down this path t gain exemption for AR use.

FWIW,

Bear in mind state to state variations of rules.

In NSW, peashooters, spud guns, catapults - all illegal and considered prohibited weapons as they discharge a projectile.

Is not strictly true as there are many 'projectile launchers' that do not fall under the act - Archery comes to mind as a big example. Certain types of sling shots do as they are declared 'prohibited weapons'.

[VK3KBC]

Hi All,

I'm still in the process of trying to have this legislation reviewed.

I've made a number of approaches to relevant Government bodies, but there's not a lot of momentum at the moment because I don't have proof that there's a lot of demand for these devices to be legalised and anything that comes close to being equated to a firearm is in the 'too hard basket' for now, it appears.

There's a summary of my findings to date at http://radcomms.net/Antenna_Launchers.html

If there's sufficient interest, I'll set up a register to capture how many people support a request for a review and maybe then we can revisit the issue with the appropriate Government agencies.

Regards,

Ben VK3KBC.

[VK2JDH]

Hi All,

I'm still in the process of trying to have this legislation reviewed.

I've made a number of approaches to relevant Government bodies, but there's not a lot of momentum at the moment because I don't have proof that there's a lot of demand for these devices to be legalised and anything that comes close to being equated to a firearm is in the 'too hard basket' for now, it appears.

There's a summary of my findings to date at http://radcomms.net/Antenna_Launchers.html

If there's sufficient interest, I'll set up a register to capture how many people support a request for a review and maybe then we can revisit the issue with the appropriate Government agencies.

Regards,

Ben VK3KBC.

I see you have done a lot of research and from that it appears that we are up against it.

I would think there should be some more exploration of the :
(i) a device commonly known as a line thrower designed for establishing
lines between structures or natural features and powered by compressed
air to other compressed gases and used for rescue purposes, rescue
training or rescue demonstration; or


I think it could be demostrated that if using the device during a 'field day' situation it could be classed as ' rescue training' , as noted in point 1 of the aims of the John Moyle FD rules:
1. The aim is to encourage and provide familiarisation with portable operation, and provide training for emergency situations. The rules are therefore designed to encourage field operation.

also if it was used during a WICEN event then there could be no doubt about it.

Dave

[VK2GOM]

...There's a summary of my findings to date at http://radcomms.net/Antenna_Launchers.html

Ben VK3KBC.

Your last line on that page had me in stitches It's just laughable the way some of the laws in this country are put together.

The state laws do vary too - you mention a catapult launcher as an alternative, but catapults / slingshots are banned as 'prohibited weapons' in NSW.

73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK3KBC]

Hi All,

There is a strong case to have this legislation reviewed. I worked in the legal arena years ago and have some contacts who still do and basically the consensus is that we could push this with sufficient financial backing and probably achieve a favorable outcome, however what works much better is a demonstration of genuine need to the appropriate authorities.

If only a few people would find these devices of benefit, then a case for review won't get much traction and it wouldn't be worth pursuing from a cost/benefit/effort point of view, however if a few thousand amateurs indicated that they would benefit from the use of launchers in the pursuit of their hobby or in emergency preparedness exercises, then we'd have a much better argument and would probably need to expend far less effort to convince the right people take notice.

The use of launchers in conjunction with WICEN exercises would be supportive of the argument but not a case in itself unless it was sponsored by WICEN. In that situation, it could open the possibility of a limited approval for WICEN personnel only, and only whilst partaking in WICEN approved activities. This wouldn't assist the majority of amateurs wishing to experiment with wire antennas either at home or in the field for portable operations or emergency response training, however the John Moyle Field Day aim is a good supportive statement applicable to the general amateur community.

Catapults are illegal in most States and Territories however if I recall correctly, I've noted some disparity there also. I believe that I've seen some legislation which infers that only catapults with an arm brace are illegal, however I haven't fully researched that area in detail and I can't recall which State or Territory that referred to, so take that with a grain of salt. I haven't seen an exemption for arborist slings in my preliminary reviews either, so I'm not certain whether they are 'technically' legal. In some cases, items can inadvertently fall under unintended legislative controls and become technically illegal, however continue to be regarded as 'acceptable in practice'. It's only when someone is charged with an offence against that legislation and they take the matter to Court that the point of law is examined and a determination reached.

Regards,

Ben.

[VK2HRX]

This accident won't help. It also confirms why they are prohibited.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-11/p ... ng/5737058

[VK6OX]

I used to run around with my schoolmates with gings/shanghais, spud guns, airguns etc. We all survived!

But that was before the Nanny State, which now keeps a close eye on whether you expel foul air in a public place, lest you destroy the environment/religious fanatics/oil or iron ore producers!

George Orwell kinda got it right methinks.

[VK4TI]

I used to run around with my schoolmates with gings/shanghais, spud guns, airguns etc. We all survived!

But that was before the Nanny State, which now keeps a close eye on whether you expel foul air in a public place, lest you destroy the environment/religious fanatics/oil or iron ore producers!

George Orwell kinda got it right methinks.

When I was a youngun some of the local kids did get hurt , puncture wounds and bruises from things thrown and propelled and one lost an eye through what looked to be a harmless toy , we learn best the hard way and the nanny thing doesn't work but I have no idea how to stop breakages

[VK2FABS]

How about bow and arrow? I understand that bow and arrows are legal here in NSW. Maybe a bit big than a slingshot, but it's legal. The only legal criteria of use is that it is not being used recklessly. I wonder if there are compact bows that actually works. Or maybe the arm is still the most convenient.

[VK4BXI]

If we are "screwed" under the current legislation, how would we be if we were to do what the American Hams are doing with a "big" quad rotor helicopter which has a remote controlled load release. I have seen reports and photo's of these being used for antenna "hanging"

Regards Bob

[VK2JDH]

If we are "screwed" under the current legislation, how would we be if we were to do what the American Hams are doing with a "big" quad rotor helicopter which has a remote controlled load release. I have seen reports and photo's of these being used for antenna "hanging"

Regards Bob

As long as you keep them under 400ft and a certain distance from people, buildings and aerodromes you are OK.

[VK2FABS]

If we are "screwed" under the current legislation, how would we be if we were to do what the American Hams are doing with a "big" quad rotor helicopter which has a remote controlled load release. I have seen reports and photo's of these being used for antenna "hanging"

The volume and weight of a field trip has just been doubled. Shame most of those discount toy helicopters from markets and shopping centres don't have enough lifting power.