Meaning of mast and self-assessable

[VK3ZTE]

Couple of hopefully measured, calm, non-inflammatory comments from one who was involved in the engineering and regulation of EMR for several years:
1. the principal known effect of non-ionising radiation is thermal and it manifests itself firstly in those parts of the body that have the poorest blood supply such as the eyes and testicles;
2. carcinogenic effects are unproven but equally it has not been possible to prove that they don't exist - it is difficult/impossible to prove a negative.
3. because human health is such an emotive issue and it is human nature to look for reasons behind illness, there are always going to be beliefs and assertions surrounding those who fall ill for whatever reason.

[VK2GOM]

...carcinogenic effects are unproven...

Thank you.

Your call AAH. You obviously have insider knowledge that none of the professional medical community knows about, so out with it.



73 - Rob VK2GOM / GW0MOH

[VK2AAH]

Read what I wrote and what VK3ZTE wrote... I gave an example of broadcast riggers complaining of eye & headache problems. Testicular cancer was what the police tech contracted. Don't you think going blind or contracting testicular cancer is a serious issue Rob?

So all VK3ZTE did was confirm what I wrote... and I appreciated his contribution.

It would be a cold person indeed who would be unemotional after knowing people who have been through this. I don't apologise for that at all... I would prefer to be called emotional rather than live in blissful ignorance without a care of what RF can do in the hands of idiots. Some hams, like some employers, are clearly idiots and unfit to be associated with anything more powerful than LIPDs...


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK3ZTE]

A little clarification. I intended my first and second points to be read separately and independently. The thermal effects referred to in the first point typically involve cataracts and sterility, not cancer.

[VK4WDM]

carcinogenic effects are unproven but equally it has not been possible to prove that they don't exist - it is difficult/impossible to prove a negative.
3. because human health is such an emotive issue and it is human nature to look for reasons behind illness, there are always going to be beliefs and assertions surrounding those who fall ill for whatever reason.

Exactly correct, which is why you need to put sensible measures in place to lower the risk but still allowing the activity to take place. Toothpaste has potentially-harmful ingredients but there are standards in place to make sure that you can still get the beneficial effect whilst lowering the risk to an acceptable level, but there will be people who still believe that toothpaste is a threat to their health.

To my mind, the ACMA requirements for AR EMR are sensible because they reduce the risk in the "near field" zones where there is potential for harm, yet still allows the activity to continue.

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4BLP]

so the argument on the antenna is really a non event what is important to the developers is the look of the estate - your argument then is simply does the erection of the tower down grade the 'estate' the developers should understand that you can put a tower up using a trailer and they would have no control neither would the council as the tower is not attached to the ground or the buildings and is 'mobile' so rather then a tower sitting in a trailer in front of the house can they come up with a solution that might make a fixed ground tower less visible. The EME debate has nothing to do with the current situation as you will be operating within the guidelines of the law - visual impact is the major concern to over come.

That's just it, the covenant people are looking at my situation based upon ravings of a neighbour, who has told other neighbours that my tower either looks like a large windmill or mobile phone tower, and I'll bet a combination of the two of them to their friends who do the covenant checks of the neighbourhood. One of the other neighbours told me that they are great friends of the covenant people, not a guess by me.

Not a bad idea of the trailer mounted tower, but the problem is that they don't want (covenant) trailers/caravans/boat trailers visible from the road. That said, I'm sure I could fit a trailer down the side of the house and put up a 'fence' to shield the trailer from being viewed from the road. Of course I'd then have to find a way of securing the trailer to the ground so the whole thing doesn't blow over.

[VK4BLP]

Couple of hopefully measured, calm, non-inflammatory comments from one who was involved in the engineering and regulation of EMR for several years:
1. the principal known effect of non-ionising radiation is thermal and it manifests itself firstly in those parts of the body that have the poorest blood supply such as the eyes and testicles;
2. carcinogenic effects are unproven but equally it has not been possible to prove that they don't exist - it is difficult/impossible to prove a negative.
3. because human health is such an emotive issue and it is human nature to look for reasons behind illness, there are always going to be beliefs and assertions surrounding those who fall ill for whatever reason.

Thank you for your salient comments.

I think we all realise that 'too much of a good thing can be bad', and this is what can happen when anyone gets 'slap happy' and doesn't take the appropriate actions to mitigate these issues.

Unfortunately, my neighbour is a occupational therapist at the local hospital, which I classify as being in the health industry, but a long way from being a medical professional. As you can guess there's a lot of people who you can give the tiniest bit of information to, and will blow it all out of proportion, i.e. tell them to add 1 + 1 together, and they get 42. I reckon these people are what I call a classic example of that.

The proposed tower location was around 60 metres from their house, and the antenna height would've have been close to 20 metres above the inside of their house, so I dare say 70 metres from the end of the yagi/quad to their living area. In other words, I would not be really adding to the ambient EMR anywhere near them.

Their excessive concern about my operation was then turned around to the covenant people who took their concerns that it would drop the value of their house by "$200,000", their words to me, in to actions the covenant people are concerned with.

If you look at the photo from the road where they held up a 100mm pvc pipe up to get a representative look at what my tower would look like. Expand that 100mm pvc pipe by 4 to take it to the width of my tower, and it would hardly be noticed by anyone, let alone when I add all the extra trees around the property to hide the view from the road as I do more landscaping through the years to come.

So in reality it is not the EMR they have complained about to others, but the look and amenity of the area. EMR is their real concern, but doesn't mean anything to the neighbours, it's the visual look of it.

[VK3ZTE]

A related musing: It is my impression (accepting I have no supporting facts/stats) that apart from repeater users and mobiles, the majority of operators with serious antennas in Australia, live outside the suburbs. If this is true, I can't help wondering if it is at least partly down to the sorts of issues that VK4BLP is experiencing. If in fact, our hobby is being seriously hamstrung, by lack of understanding or even bloody-mindedness, this might justify additional action and support from the WIA?

[VK4DU]

Concur.

This is an issue that potentially effects all amateurs.

[VK5ZLR]

Plus the local noise in the inner 'burbs make HF Rx pretty marginal at best. When I was in Adelaide I pretty much gave up on HF altogether, but still had a lot of VHF stuff in the air.
Those covenant people sound like right wallies, best of luck with it.

[VK2MUS]

Not a bad idea of the trailer mounted tower, but the problem is that they don't want (covenant) trailers/caravans/boat trailers visible from the road

as a past director and manager of a building company and having developers put restrictive regulations on the use of land over the years - I would find it very hard for them to argue the case of a trailer or car being visible from the road in the type of development as shown in your photo in any court and win - that is a simple restriction of the free use of the land for a commonly found situation in most if not nearly all of the homes in Australia.
I would love to read this covenant
Covenants were common in NSW in the 60's and 70's but fell out of use due to the courts looking favorably on the removal of them - they have appeared to come back into use as a marketing tool to sell land.
you need to do some research - using http://www.austlii.edu.au/ do a search on the Queensland courts for the word covenant and the name of the developer for example - you can get pleasant surprises from these types of searches other search terms could be tower, flagpole etc takes a while but can give excellent ammo to approach the developers. I take it that the developers placed the covenant on the land if so then they are the people you talk to first then council the resident do not have any authority under the covenant to direct or order you to do any thing . As to the EME debate - drop any reference to EME if a resident tells you that they will be harmed by the EME from your radio then ask then to produce the evidence and leave it at that
john

[VK4TS]

Richard - your fear of EMR is well founded but you are also using some quite extreme examples..I cannot think of an amateur station that has the power levels you have described.

I agreed with Rob about the welders - that they have stuff all regulation for something that generates some serious doses of RF close to the operator.

Some google work will turn up all sorts of references and for your neighbour Brendan you might like to refer her to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_pho ... and_health

because that contains a plethora of references that should keep her busy for months....

[VK2AAH]

Hi Trent,

I don't believe they are extreme. For example the Police tech who spent many many hours with his butt only immediately above an active (transmitting) antenna. The transmitter was 25W. What that emphasises is how it doesn't take anywhere near 400W, it is a cumulative effect. The second factor is proximity.

Regards


Richard
VK2AAH

[VK4WDM]

Hey Guys!

It is absolutely pointless debating the merits or demerits of the ACMA EMR regs. They are here to stay, and to continue to bleat about them only makes us look like incompetent idiots to the ACMA inspectors who do, and probably are, looking at this forum. I re-did my level two assessment on my station yesterday and it took about 15 minutes (yes Steve, I know that a calculator is no substitute for a meter, but the ACMA don't require one to be used). We could have ended up with something much more stringent and expensive - just build a bridge, get over it, move on, and enjoy AR. This argument is not helping the OP, just clouding the water

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK2HRX]

And for amusement value in the EMR going around in circules disucssion here is a good one:

http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-11.html

[VK4TI]

And for amusement value in the EMR going around in circules disucssion here is a good one:

http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-11.html

I seem to recall a death in the commissioning of navel repairs here in Au some time ago due to a worker being in or on a ships radar assembly when it became active , the thing is you can't deny bad luck or poor management but the average ham unless terminally thoughtless wont suffer long term effects for raising the shack rf for a few minutes , just dont key the vhf amp with the lid off or defeat the safety's on your hf amp . Throwing out red-herrings like the extreme cases does nothing but fuel a pointless discussion ending in no relevance to this situation imho , doing ones homework already admitted would have prevented this problem , now the question is what costto argue the case and bypass the overly restrictive rules currently applied . at 60 metres from the tower assy as indicated would hardly raise the rf level in the complainants property above the ambient surely and certainly well below her cell phone output ? , I suspect the response in fact was "ewww ugly me no understand so rant "
B

[VK4TS]

Not extreme ? Sitting your butt on a transmitter ? Climbing a live multi kW TX antenna ?

The reality is that Brendan needs to get over the issue - or find another hobby .. I would suggest he starts with NVIS antenna and works forwards

[VK4BLP]

Not extreme ? Sitting your butt on a transmitter ? Climbing a live multi kW TX antenna ?

Didn't even think of that. My Kenwood 710 is mounted under my drivers seat in my car, and whilst I don't transmit all of the time, I still sit there and talk on that radio with my bum on that seat. Particulary on the club's tuesday night net.

The reality is that Brendan needs to get over the issue - or find another hobby .. I would suggest he starts with NVIS antenna and works forwards

Not planning on changing hobbies.

Hadn't heard of NVIS, but just did a google search for it... interesting.

I have a nice 160m wire loop sitting in a box packed away in the shipping container that I'm seriously considering sticking up on the block in the building envelope. Going to plant some vines or climbing plants on it and call it as part of the required landscaping part of the covenant. A nice big Empress Tree or two right down the front of the block so that it doesn't affect the yet to be installed solar panels on the roof of my house, will give me more points of hook up for wire loops.

Damn shame that at this point my 'one man' tower is going to gather dust, at least until I find some way of making it a 'mobile' antenna.

[VK4WDM]

I would suggest he starts with NVIS antenna

Brendon, It does not have to be NVIS, just lower your antenna aspirations a bit. A green painted ground-mounted multi-band vertical is stealthy and will give you the world' I know, I use one. Lie it flat during the day if you need to, or stick the butt end in a barrel of gravel so it becomes temporary. Hex beam on a push up pole so it is below the house roof when lowered? In a barrel with block anchored guys, only needs to be 6m high. What about a mag loop? Fine wire in the existing trees? "TV antenna" for VHF/UHF?

I am always amazed at how hams can get a signal out from even the most challenging situations. I work plenty of stations on digital modes who have "attic dipoles" and such. Unfortunately this is a fact of mode ham life. There is a guy I know in ZL who has a vertical hidden inside the "poo pipe" for his toilet. Just pull a string and out it pops!

The neighbor with the RF phobia is really only a distraction. If the antenna is legal, and I can't see how it can't be if it is a "temporary structure" and EMR regs are met then there is really nothing she can do to stop you operating unless she goes down the expensive route of a court injunction. Just get on the air somehow and that will give you a chance to do as Steve VK4ZAZ says and borrow an EMR meter and do some readings for use as evidence if need be. If the harassment continues then consider a court order to stop it.

The reality is that if you keep stuffing around trying to find the perfect solution you will be driven or be 90+ and in the old folks home before you get a signal on the air. Get something up!

73

Wayne VK4WDM

[VK4BLP]

The neighbor with the RF phobia is really only a distraction. If the antenna is legal, and I can't see how it can't be if it is a "temporary structure" and EMR regs are met then there is really nothing she can do to stop you operating unless she goes down the expensive route of a court injunction. Just get on the air somehow and that will give you a chance to do as Steve VK4ZAZ says and borrow an EMR meter and do some readings for use as evidence if need be. If the harassment continues then consider a court order to stop it.

The reality is that if you keep stuffing around trying to find the perfect solution you will be driven or be 90+ and in the old folks home before you get a signal on the air. Get something up!

The new home is still a couple of months away from being 'occupancy certificate' stage, so there's no super rush to get something up straight away.

This tower issue has been a super distraction at getting anything done.

When we move in, I will be putting something up just to get back on the air again in comfort. I've still got a Kenwood 480 and Outbacker Perth+ in the car, so I can park on my driveway with the volume up and windows down, so that they can hear me on the air, and they can't really say 'boo' about that. At the moment I don't really have time to get on the air when I'm over there, because I'm doing something on the house.