Distance Based Scoring

[VK4TS]

I noticed that quite a few VK4 UHF VHF stations were active in the John Moyle Field Day -

As this is a distance based scoring contest I thought we would have seen some comments as to how well or unwell it went...

Was it good?

Did you enjoy?

Would you do it again?

Would you like it repeated every two months?

Would you prefer a variety in the contest scoring methodology so as to make it more interesting ?

Would you prefer that distance based scoring for all VHF UHF Contests be put on the back burner?

Would you prefer that it be adopted as the standard OR is it not quiet right and there needs to be even more though go into alternatives if alternatives are to be adopted at all ?

[VK4GHZ]

I noticed that quite a few VK4 UHF VHF stations were active in the John Moyle Field Day -

As this is a distance based scoring contest I thought we would have seen some comments as to how well or unwell it went...

Was it good?

Did you enjoy?

Would you do it again?

Would you like it repeated every two months?

Would you prefer a variety in the contest scoring methodology so as to make it more interesting ?

Would you prefer that distance based scoring for all VHF UHF Contests be put on the back burner?

Would you prefer that it be adopted as the standard OR is it not quiet right and there needs to be even more though go into alternatives if alternatives are to be adopted at all ?

Trent, with all due respect we have been down this path before, and hit one incredibly stubborn brick wall.
Various options were presented, none adopted.

eg: why do all three VHF/UHF contests have to be exactly the same format?
The quick answer: they don't.

I think everyone has moved on, because bashing your head against said brick wall, eventually hurts.

Would you like it repeated every two months?

You cannot be serious???

The day you reach 100% contest participation by all capable operators, is the day you need more than one.
We already see enough apathy and complacency, simply because people take things for granted.

As a rough benchmark, do a VKL Op Info search on those who have flagged themselves as being active on 6m and above, in the last 12 months.
Then divide that by the actual number of participants in any given event.
The result equals the "apathy ratio", ironically the same acronym as the hobby itself: AR.

I'll tell you what the 1st number is: 713
Yes, 713 VKs (as of this posting) have been active on VKL in the last 12 months, who have bothered to flag themselves as active 6m & above.
Note: even though these includes some "dupes" (with /P profiles along with the main home station profiles of the same unique operator), we could still expect the real number to be higher, due to interwebby phobias, lack of engagement, etc.

Incidentally, of the 713, the breakdown of call areas is:
VK1: 17
VK2: 166
VK3: 192
VK4: 152
VK5: 98

I don't ever recall seeing or hearing anywhere near these numbers for any given contest involving 6m and above.
Hence, apathy and disengagement (boredom from too much?) cannot be ignored.

Now to understand one aspect of it...

This may seem counter intuitive, but if you want to increase enthusiasm/participation/desire (call it whatever you want), then have less of something.
This is basic supply and demand.

Look at how highly desirable items can be drip fed one at a time on the likes of eBay to maintain a higher price.
Read as: to increase desirability and participation [in this case, by bidding].

This is not rocket science, and whether it be obtaining a material object, or participation in an event, the same underlying human mentality and thought processes apply.
If something is too plentiful, it will be taken for granted.

You can lead horses to water, but.

[VK4TS]

So your answer is you didn't like it and don't want to admit it ?

[VK4BZ]

I suppose the other thing to add to the mix is that a significant percantage of people in the Ham population don't like contesting.

I had enough fun and games getting people out and about for the John Moyle from the Redcliffe Club - a double whammy I suppose with a contest and a field environment - but those who came enjoyed themselves and I guess those who didn't had an enjoyable time doing other non-contest things. To be honest, critical mass didn't attend, but that's not the point for me.

We all know that when it comes to VHF, UHF and Microwave, the Southern states will always have the advantage because of the concentration of operators over a smaller area. The rules are not going to change because the vested interest is too high. That's just a fact of life...we live with it...and get on with having a fun time doing whatever it is we like doing on radio.

If folks who operate "Two-up" want some fun, then the VHF/UHF field days are there, along with MAD and Microwave shoot-outs (and here's a plug for what the Redcliffe Club is doing up at Murrenbong soon - check out the website for details!) By the way, I am one of the 713, but that's only on 6m. My lifestyle doesn't allow me appropriate operating times on higher bands - I'm usually at work running around a cross-country track doing early morning PT!

[VK4GHZ]

So your answer is you didn't like it and don't want to admit it ?

Trent, I did not say that, nor even infer that!
As you are baiting...

The JMFD was a great opportunity to get out and have some fun playing radio, albeit a long 8 hour drive in our case.

As we discovered, a HF operator cannot sit right next to a VHF/UHF/Microwave op.
Why?
The HF op can happily operate away using fixed dipoles and headsets.
But at times the VHF+ op needs to hear the RX audio (at a sufficient volume) on speaker to wander over and armstrong the yagis, especially @ 70 and 23.

70cm and 23cm were bands that were breaking new grounds in the 1960's and 70's, let alone the GHz bands.

When was JMFD introduced, again?

(My earliest callbook, 1979, lists the JMFD)

It's the same old problem... these WIA contests do not evolve and adapt over time to keep pace with current trends.
30-40 years is a long time - no wonder participation is low, from utter boredom of the same old same old.
I digress.

Understandably, this VHF+ speaker audio became distracting for the HF op at times.

If you're going to set up separate camps, then what's the point of going away with mates?

Although distance based, the JMFD scoring does not recognise the extra efforts involved in building and activating the bands above 2m.
Only an active microwave operator will ever comprehend and appreciate this.

It was nice to see 22 points for VHF+ contact of 150-299km though.
A contact over the same distance on HF was appropriately rewarded with 2 points.

A proportional scoring table recognising the GHZ bands would be welcome, but that becomes a new/different contest.

I should have taken a photo, but our entire HF/6 station was packed in a regular plastic laundry basket, (except for the 2 element 6m yagi, which was very compact anyway).
(IC-706, PS, ATU, wire dipoles, cables, all in a laundry basket)

On the other hand, the 2/70/23/1296/2.4/3.4/5.7/10G stations filled a Mitsubishi van.

As a microwaver, would I bother with the JMFD again?
Probably not.
But this was due to the disappointing (but not unexpected) lack of activity on those bands, and not due to the scoring methodology.
It was fun to try out combined HF and VHF+ though.

VHF+ scoring.
...around in circles we go!


ps
Once the results are released, remind me to calculate the AR (apathy ratio).

[VK4TS]

Why is every one who has a different opinion a heretic ?

We have to admit there just are not the numbers in VK for VHF UHF contesting period..

When I chat to US based contesters and they mention their location is no good for VHF UHF because they only make 800 contacts on 2M Single band in a contest I think we should realise that is the issue and not a function of rules: what ever they are, if we only have 50 stations to work in our area it gets boring - heaven forbid if we were in Mount Isa..

[VK3BQ]

or the VK5 guys refuse to point the antennas east?

[VK4CLG]

For me personally the JMFD was all about having fun and I did have fun on the weekend. Maybe it was a bit more enjoyable for me as I was with the Sunshine Coast ARC and all the group got together and worked together to make it a fun event.
But as the microwave op for the weekend I will admit I was a bit disappointed with the final outcome of contacts with only 6 contacts for the whole weekend on microwave. I would have liked to have done better but due to some of the distances and a few big piles of dirt call mountains that lay between use and other contesters didn't help but I didn't give up. Adam VK4GHZ was going to be a challenge to reach on microwave but I didn't give up on him. I tried everything to make the contact but it just was not to be. Ok I'm only new to microwave and my gear is not top notch just yet but I do have just as much power as some of the top players in the game.

Fair enough some of the other microwave op could only operate for certain times due to other commitments which made things more difficult. You also got to remember that some of the JMFD operators were single op contesters and as Adam mentioned in his earlier post HF is easy to setup portable. Just a dipole, PS, Rig and battery/Generator and your away. It all fits nicely in a washing basket but microwave needs a lot more gear to work and I can tell you I only just had enough room in the car to drive it as it was chock a block full of microwave gear. Taking this into account with some of the single op contesters and you can understand why some opted not to do microwave or do it with limited equipment and only 1 or 2 bands.

Would I do the JMFD again on microwave??. Yes I would. I'm not big on contesting and may never do it solo but with a group or club Yes I would. Maybe a few changes to scoring to help microwave become a bigger part in the contest might help but the bottom line is to just have fun. You will have your good days and your bad days but just getting out there is all part of the fun.

[VK3ALB]

or the VK5 guys refuse to point the antennas east?

You should have been out on the VK5 activity day. Flat condx and just too great a distance. You have to give the VK5's credit for trying.

[VK4EA]

And the lack of willing operators thwarted my plans to activate a separate VHF/UHF/microwave station. The Redcliffe Club has a nice site for the HF station, very low noise, but not so good for anything above 50MHz. Had to make choice between making the HF outing worthwhile for the majority of the members.

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[VK5ZT]

Hi all

Well, the Elizabeth Club VK5LZ was out on what we thought was the perfect microwave site amid the wind turbines
over 100K north of Adelaide hoping to capitalise on distance. Tremendous views in all directions.

Unfortunately there is no accounting for weather...we were nearly blown off the hill and were forced to
consolidate the whole station into my van. 50 Mhz to 24 Ghz. Surprisingly the (sheltered) antennas remained virtually
unscathed but moved around a little. It was our other van that suffered and had to be shut down before being destroyed.

All bands to 24 Ghz inside the van.

We had all the wind but the city and southern suburbs got all the rain forcing field operators to quit early leaving us very short of contacts!
A looming rain cloud on the weather radar convinced us to get off the hill just as the storm hit. Our well planned 24 hour contest ended up as an eight hour struggle that beat us....maybe next year.

Cheers

Tim VK5ZT

[ZL2FAE]

Would you like it repeated every two months?

In ZL we went from Summer only contests to every two months and it's pretty daunting keeping that schedule up.
The winter months are very quiet for contests here. In fact because there are so many VHF/UHF contests we have a poor turnout. Basically I can almost predict the stations that will come on.

I now only enter the two summer contests (the first weekend in December and Feb) and the Autumn one (first weekend in April). Why, because unless you have a fantastic home site it's /p and quite an effort to get a good site the enthusiasim wains rapidly during the cold and dark months when propagation is poor.

So unless you want less peple operating during contests don't have the contests cart blanch every two months.

My 2cents worth. Learn from others (our) mistakes.....

[VK5ZD]

Well, it seems the contest manager has succumbed to the pressure and finally introduced distance based scoring for the VHF/UHF field day contests.
It'll be interesting to see whether this increases the number of participants.
According to the web site, logging software will be available in time for the winter contest (I assume this refers to VKCL) in which case I suspect the author is going to be rather busy getting it to work correctly

[VK2ZRH]

VK5ZD posted:
Well, it seems the contest manager has succumbed to the pressure . .

Well, no, actually. The WIA Board examined what had transpired (over a number of monthly teleconferences) on the issue/s of contest "scoring styles" and came to the view to "let the market decide". Hence "parallel" contests - thus, Division 1 and Division 2 - with a contest manager for each. The scheme will operate for at least the next three contests (Winter & Spring 2014, Summer 2015), after which the Board will consider the issue/s.

The Board, er, appointed me to be the erstwhile "ambassador" to facilitate (in the background) the operation of the scheme (just who's grandmothers grave did I trip over?).

I anticipate some unintended wrinkles to arise, which, with everyone's good-sporting forbearance, we'll iron out and get through. You never know, this may be a world-first trend in contests! Wait a minute! Nobody else does this, anywhere!

Posted in the interests of general harmony.

[VK4GHZ]

Progress!

Roger, I see an immediate problem, one that can be avoided from the beginning.

Entrants will be able to submit logs under the Division 1 rules, or under the Division 2 rules, or both.

Div 1: need to exchange 4 digit Maidenhead locators as usual (6 digit locators can be exchanged, but they are not essential).

Div 2: need to exchange 6 digit locators

For consistency, and remove any potential confusion (hams love confusion!), a 6 character grid should be exchanged for both divisions.

Irrespective of whether Division 1 only needs 4 characters.

Honestly, if hams cannot determine their grid square to 6, 8, or even 10 characters this day and age, there is a problem.
There are many web sites that provide the mapping tools to do this, as well as free apps for both iOS and Android devices.
Most modern GPS receivers can display co-ords in Maidenhead format.

Read as: No excuses!

What if I participate in Division 2, and make a contact with somebody who only gives me their 4 character GS?
What happens then?
Is the contact invalid?
Is the calculated distance penalised by not knowing where within the larger square they were?

If there is a mixture of 4 and 6 character grids being exchanged, how is it possible to submit logs for both Divisions???

Just get everybody on the same page, and use 6 character grids, and be done with it.

I can't imagine anyone having a valid excuse for not quoting a 6 character grid.
It may take a few extra seconds to communicate each time, but when you're sitting around idle for the remainder of a 3 hour period anyway, who honestly cares?
And generally after the first re-work, most stations don't even mention their grid in the exchange... it's assumed to be the same.
ie. there will be a negligible time penalty involved in exchange the 5th and 6th characters.

I think this is a major oversight, in an otherwise excellent move.

[VK5ZD]

There's another small issue. Assume you, as a Division 2 station, have just worked a Division 1 station. He then moves, say, 1km to a new grid locator. He will then want to work you again straight away. However, because he didn't move at least 10km, you can't work him again until 3 hours have elapsed. The reverse situation is also true where the Division 2 station moves over 10km but remains in the same (4 character) grid locator. The contacts are only valid one way.

I'm hoping that there will be a single logging program that will cater for both divisions and cope with these anomalies.
Re the grid locators themselves, my vote would be for 8 characters.

[VK2ZRH]

Hi Adam. Thanks for the comments. Please PM me.

[VK3ALB]

Some thoughts

The point of the second division is to demonstrate it's ability to encourage more participation and level out the scoring anomalies. That is, point out the limitations of division one. Changing the scoring methodology for division one (requiring 6 characters) would in my opinion affect the results of the trial.

Increasing the number of characters required for a grid locator whilst allowing for finer resolution of the scoring makes the contest exchange more problematic particularly with rapid or deep QSB, AE etc. Also, the likelihood of having two operators within the same subsquare necessitating the need for finer resolution beyond 6 characters would be pretty low.

Not everyone cares about grid squares. I'm sure we've all worked people who just wanted to "give some numbers out". They do it for the fun of it or to help a mate. No matter how easy it is some operators just won't be bothered to that extent. It normally falls to the contester to deal with it to the best of their abilities. If your mate tells you he lives in the suburb of Ludditeville it should be a pretty simple case of working out his grid square for him.

If we're somehow voting on a reasonable number of characters to issue during a contact I vote for 6 characters as I think it's a good compromise between geographical resolution and successful completion of a contact under difficult conditions.

[VK4JAM]

Well done to the WIA Board and their view to "let the market decide".
It is all about having some fun, and getting some activity on the bands.
The parallel contest approach will do this, and "test" what works best.
There is nothing wrong with an each way bet.
Also agree with having a 6 digit maidenhead locator, I see this as a must have.

[VK4EA]

Awesome result. Thanks to Roger (VK2ZRH) for facilitating, and the many, many people lobbying the WIA to make this happen.

I'm already planning what the Redcliffe Club might be doing in June.

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