The RAAF have been given 50.2 MHz FM

[VK4ABW]

Well, what a rude shock i received on the w/end. Ater attempting to call CQ on the Australian recommended calling frequency of 50.2 MHz for local traffic, i copped some terrible interference.

After changing to FM and listening for a bit, i realised who it was. To cut a long story short, 'apparently' the RAAF have a 'letter' from Canberra stating that they have primary use of 50.2 FM until the end of June 08.

How many amateurs in Australia are aware of this?? or even were TOLD ABOUT IT????

They are using 100 watt radios and have been heard in QLD and NT so far

And to top things off, apparently it is a 'safety net' dealing with real life situations....

Boy oh boy.... I certainly hope that no 'tragedy' happens and there is no inquiry as to why that frequency experienced 'interference' ?

and yes, I have raised this matter with the ACMA directly.

Gary

[VK2YK]

Hi Gary,

Good to see the ACMA looked at the Band plan that the WIA produces before allocating spectrum to other users, yes I know we are only a secondary service users but you would think they would look and advertise to the amateur community that there would be other no amateur users using a particular frequency/s in a particular area.

I hope this was just a oversight on the ACMA's part and hope that this doesn't set a precedence for others.

Cheers,
Adam

[VK4WDM]

I have just come across this post from Gary and it explains some of the noises I have heard recently. This is not the first that the ADF have used 6M for safety nets, a year or so ago a cadet group had theirs on 50.060. I have also heard tactical comms and range comms on the lower part of 6M from time to time. The use of these frequencies by the ADF is daft for a couple of reasons: interference from the other legitimate uses - us (especially when we don't know they are there), and lack of security when long-haul propagation is in.

After listening to a RAAF net chattering away (50.600 I think) for a couple of days during the last sun spot cycle peak I contacted the RAAF signals section and asked them if they were aware that their signals were probably being copied at good strength in Japan, China and possibly the USA, only to be told by a senior officer that "I needed to understand that this was VHF communications and were line of sight only." I invited the said officer to visit my shack and look at my log, which he did. His first comment was: "you must be reading the frequency incorrectly, you cannot contact stations so far away on VHF! The next argument was: "it must be those big antennas of yours creating abnormal conditions." Then I showed him my mobile log with pages of JA's worked on a whip with 10W. He left rather bemused, but the net was not heard again.

Hopefully the latest incursion is only temporary and not the thin end of the wedge. I would hate to be trying to work Greenland through the splatter of 100 watts of FM.

Hopefully the ACMA will not let this happen.

73

Wayne

[vk3six]

How many amateurs in Australia are aware of this?? or even were TOLD ABOUT IT????

Quite a lot Garry.. quite a lot.

Give it up we are secondary in 50 megs anyway.
its none of our business what they do any more than the Chinese putting a TV station on 50.111.

[VK4WDM]

My involvement with the 30-60 MHZ military radios is a bit more hands on than just as a visiting contractor - I used them. Although defence CAN operate anywhere they like, I don't ever remember being officially assigned a frequency between 52 and 54 MHZ - most were 32-40 MHZ and above 55MHZ. The only exception was the low powered PRC that was used for close range patrol work. They were used across their entire range but were a very poor rig - 500m was dx!

The reason why 52-54MHZ should be avoided was well know - it was a ham band. Although it WAS legal to operate there you did not do so unless there was no alternative -people could be listening and there was a good chance of interference from ham stations that could not hear the lower powered ADF signals. Some stations used to slide around a bit to get clear operating air and may have ended up in the ham band, but they would get their bums kicked if that terrifying personage, the Warrant Officer-Radio found out. I would strongly suspect that the same policy applies to 50MHZ now.

As for the role of the ACMA. It will be interesting to see what reply Gary gets. When I reported the cadet safety net to them as per my previous post they said that they would look into the matter and see what they could do about it. It might be coincidence, but the net disappeared from 50.060 next day and I know that the cadet camp went on for another week.

All in all, I am not too worried about Gary's report. There was a very large exercise on in Northern Australia at the time and this was probably a case of "no alternative available" and is unlikely to become a regular occurence. But parking a "safety net" where there was the possibility of interference (which could have happened if there was a large winter E's opening) would be considered sheer stupidity in my day and almost bring the OIC comms before a firing squad!

73

Wayne

[VK4ABW]

Just to clarify a few things:

The information about the RAAF using 50.2 FM was provided (freely) to me over the phone. No information was sourced over the radio.

And yes Wayne, I have never met a 'contractor' in my 31 years of Defence employment who really knows what goes on behind the scene or policy for that matter. Contractors are told jack.

It is now August and the RAAF is still using 50.2 FM as a main frequency, so all amateurs need to weary of this.

Provided in the interest of safety for all.

PS: If you want to get something right Steve, my name has only one 'r'.

Gary

[VK4QB]

Hi Guys,
We had some interference the other day. Not spectacular and it went away after a while and it went onto another freq. I Think that if we ignor it, there will be no harm done, and every one will get along OK
Brian
4QB

[vk3six]

Gary with an R has his nose out of joint because the RAAF are in his band-space and it might cramp his style/ego.

I have it on good authority (ACMA and SIGNALS) that allocations from 30-60 megs to the military do not need any further approval as it is a blanket allocation dating back to decades when 30-60 meg military radios were in common use.

Signals state that:;

We do not seek approval from anyone as to what frequencies we use or do not use.
We have blanket approval for the use of any frequency between 30 and 60 Mhz on an as required basis.
We have frequency agile spread spectrum radios and are unlikely to suffer interference from, and are less likely to cause interference to any other service.
The use of plain transmissions is not the preferred mode and it is unlikely to be an operationally important transmission, will be of short duration, and of no consequence.


(By the way the act of reporting that these frequencies exist is a breach of secrecy provisions).
The use of the frequency in Townsville or anywhere else is none of our business and to report the use of these frequencies on the PUBLIC internet is a direct breach of the secrecy provisions of the act we are all signatory to.
(An amateur will not reveal to any un-authorised persons the presence of a message or a transmission or even hint that such a message or transmission exists).
As a secondary service in the 50-52 band we have no protection afforded to us from harmful interference and may not cause interference to that service.

As for it being a good summer its nice to see the claws are all out and hams inhumanity to hams still rears its ugly head.

[VK4GHZ]

(By the way the act of reporting that these frequencies exist is a breach of secrecy provisions).

To quote Owen from another topic;

...In the past, ham licences were subject to secrecy provisions to protect information received (eg the 1980 Amateur Operator's Handbook). The current LCD does not have such provisions...

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Owen

If this is the case, (and I'm not doubting Owen for one moment, I just haven't had a need to verify this for my own knowledge), then Steve, things have changed.

[VK4WDM]

We are not talking about "agile spread-frequency radios" in this instance, it is a fixed frequency FM station.

Steve, we may have to live with it as you say, but I have a question for you: will your comments be so warm and fuzzy if an ADF 100W FM station in VK3 parks itself on 50.010 in October 2012 and the band is opening to some exotic QTH that even you haven't worked?

73
Wayne

[VK4GHZ]

...parks itself on 50.010 in October 2012...

It would be even worse on 110!
(I'm sure that's what you meant Wayne.)

Anyway... it would be beating against the Tevion HDD STB.

[VK4WDM]

Hi Adam, yes, 110 is what I meant. I will have to turn my brain on before I post!


I don't want to be hard on Steve, but this problem is not in his back yard YET, so he should be a little easier on us who live in QH30.

The good news is that my source, who is also quite high in the SIGS food chain, seems to think that this current situation is to meet a particular operational need and won't be long term.

He also points out that if hams and the military are sharing spectrum it is less likely to be auctioned off to other users. As Steve's friend says, we won't be troubled by each other except in very rare situations like the present one.

Wayne

[VK4ABW]

It is now August and the RAAF is still using 50.2 FM as a main frequency, so all amateurs need to weary of this.

Provided in the interest of safety for all.


How the dickens do you get my nose out of joint over someone being on 50.2 steve? That information was provided for the BENEFIT of all amateurs. The operative word being BENEFIT.

I couldn't give a rats if they operate there for another 10 years as it has NO IMPACT on where i operate....but it just may have an impact on you, whom to quote "50.2 is to be used for local traffic".

Still working plenty of EME here with HA, ZF, W, JA making the logbook, so as you can see my nose is fine.

Gary
VK4ABW

[VK2KRR]

Still working plenty of EME here with HA, ZF, W, JA making the logbook, so as you can see my nose is fine

Gary, top effort re the EME on 6 well done.

[VK4WDM]

With regards to Steve's comments on not advertising the frequencies. There is no real issue about that – I have several publicly-available publications which list ADF frequencies across the entire spectrum, including some that I would regard as being “sensitive.”

I would argue the reverse. Gary’s posting was in the ADF interest- how can we avoid causing interference to them if we don’t know they are there?

I do support Steve’s comments about preserving the security of what we hear. I have not had time to check out the latest R&C act, but even if the act does not specify that we are not to reveal information from non-ham signals, it is a usual communication protocol in all services to preserve the privacy of signals not intended for the receiving station – unless it is a distress signal. My friend in ADF SIGS (who is “ham friendly” and intends to get a ham licence himself when he retires) did point that out when I was talking to him.

The good news is that I have been listening to .2 for the last three days and have only heard the occasional data burst.

73

Wayne